124 replies to this topic

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Right.  The gun lobby loves to cite Switzerland, but they completely ignore the fact that Switzerland is a socialist, secular, multicultural society with national health care and free higher education.  So pretty much everything they hate, except guns.

[Redezra]

And it's because of all those factors that they don't shoot eachother. ^-^

[Manoka]

Right.  The gun lobby loves to cite Switzerland, but they completely ignore the fact that Switzerland is a socialist, secular, multicultural society with national health care and free higher education.  So pretty much everything they hate, except guns.

Switzerland really isn't socialist, they have a mixed economy, of which most capitalists systems are these days, the U.S. has a pretty multicultural society and all, As well, the U.S. pretty much has a national healthcare system, which provides the poor, grievously injured, and really old, which is what most systems provide for, with the middle and upper class having to pay for most of it unless there are extenuating circumstances (same in Switzerland). Switzerland has government program to alleviate costs for tertiary schooling if people meet certain standards or get certain grades, which is pretty much true in the U.S. as well with scholarships, and this is generally only true for public universities.

 

So, while we might say they are more socialist, more multicultural, more healthcarey, and provide more assistance for higher education publicly, it's pretty much a half and half system, with some healthcare costs and some education costs alleviated, with some socialism and some multiculturalism, but not entirely. 65% of Switzerland is German, with another 23% French or say, which we could say about the U.S., except we have a long of English and such here as well. "White" In America is German, french, Italian, Spanish, English, and so on, so it's a bit more mixed, with more black and Asian, as well. One major difference is that their government is allowed to create businesses, but with the post office and federal reserve here, it's not exactly a whole lot different.

 

 

One thing I do like is that they predominately use nuclear power though.

 

I'm all for that.

Edited by Manoka, 25 October 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Manoka]

And it's because of all those factors that they don't shoot eachother. ^-^

People still shoot each other there, just rarely, and it really has no direct impact.

 

If we look at the number of rich criminals, CEO's, bankers, and that type of thing who end up being criminals or having criminal like behavoir, it's the same rate among the rich and the poor, meaning that they do just as bad things as shooting other people, like putting hundreds of thousands out on the street to give themselves a pay raise, at around the same rate. Their crimes are just less overt or borderline illegal.

Edited by Manoka, 25 October 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[Manoka]

"Oh gee, more topics on the Chat Room, how interesting~ Lets see how this one's coming along"

 

 

 

Blah blah herpa derp I have no brains blah blah Switzerland is the best nation on earth because they carry guns hurr durr not cause they're more educated than us durr clearly more educated than me derp blah herp durr.

Durr durr derp blah blah blah Europe is totally a state in latin america blah blah blah spanish swedish swiss blah blah guns blah derp blah blah blah.

Freedom blah Murica blah From my cold dead hands blah fully automagic death machine is good for kids blah blah blah.

Durr derp blah blah blah.

 

Oh that Manoka :3

 

However there is a point to be made there, the reason other countries with guns don't shoot eachother up like swiss cheese is because they're all far more educated. They sorta... you know... know better. Sorta like how the shooters are never from the wealthy families in the USA. Cause they're educated too. The not so well off families aren't. =/ And that sucks.

 

But if you're not ready for the responsibility, why are you doing it anyway? That's my problem with all of this. You're all unaware of the level of difference between you and the European states. They're really, really, really different. And you can't use them as pointers for your own nation, unless you also want to go full socialist and pay for *everyone*'s education. And healthcare. And 60-70% tax. But that'd be robbery... right?

 

So, do what we did. "Want to shoot eachother? NO GUNS FOR YOU!"

 

Right.

 

Because torture was still legal in Britain up until 1972, and is still widely practiced, because the whole IRA and colonialism thing which ended just in the 90's never happened, because the Berlin wall fell in 1989  and that was so long ago, because police report statistics differently and ignore reported crime that they don't investigate, claiming it's not real and so on, means that Europe is so much better.

 

 

Don't buy into their propaganda.

 

Europe has always thought they were better than the rest of the world, and their nationalism doesn't really go away. I mean there's more there between scotts and British then most ethnic groups here.

 

 

If we want to talk about education, let's look at the British system, of which most other systems in Europe follow.

 

Grade inflation is such a prominent problem in the UK that the majority of universities there won't except a high school degree as adequate to go through college.

Edited by Manoka, 25 October 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Justavictim82]

"Oh gee, more topics on the Chat Room, how interesting~ Lets see how this one's coming along"

Blah blah herpa derp I have no brains blah blah Switzerland is the best nation on earth because they carry guns hurr durr not cause they're more educated than us durr clearly more educated than me derp blah herp durr.
Durr durr derp blah blah blah Europe is totally a state in latin america blah blah blah spanish swedish swiss blah blah guns blah derp blah blah blah.
Freedom blah Murica blah From my cold dead hands blah fully automagic death machine is good for kids blah blah blah.
Durr derp blah blah blah.

Oh that Manoka :3

However there is a point to be made there, the reason other countries with guns don't shoot eachother up like swiss cheese is because they're all far more educated. They sorta... you know... know better. Sorta like how the shooters are never from the wealthy families in the USA. Cause they're educated too. The not so well off families aren't. =/ And that sucks.

But if you're not ready for the responsibility, why are you doing it anyway? That's my problem with all of this. You're all unaware of the level of difference between you and the European states. They're really, really, really different. And you can't use them as pointers for your own nation, unless you also want to go full socialist and pay for *everyone*'s education. And healthcare. And 60-70% tax. But that'd be robbery... right?

So, do what we did. "Want to shoot eachother? NO GUNS FOR YOU!"

Right.

Because torture was still legal in Britain up until 1972, and is still widely practiced, because the whole IRA and colonialism thing which ended just in the 90's never happened, because the Berlin wall fell in 1989 and that was so long ago, because police report statistics differently and ignore reported crime that they don't investigate, claiming it's not real and so on, means that Europe is so much better.


Don't buy into their propaganda.

Europe has always thought they were better than the rest of the world, and their nationalism doesn't really go away. I mean there's more there between scotts and British then most ethnic groups here.


If we want to talk about education, let's look at the British system, of which most other systems in Europe follow.

Grade inflation is such a prominent problem in the UK that the majority of universities there won't except a high school degree as adequate to go through college.

God damn you Red for making me have to agree with Manoka

[the rebel]

Because torture was still legal in Britain up until 1972, and is still widely practiced

 
In 1640 that the practice was formally abolished, unless you call  the stress interrogation techniques as torture of IRA members during Operation Demetrius which was fuck all compared to waterboarding that happens across the pond.
 

I mean there's more there between scotts and British then most ethnic groups here.

 
We have a mutual love/hate relationship with our neighbours and ourselfs which outsiders don't get.
 

If we want to talk about education, let's look at the British system, of which most other systems in Europe follow.
 
Grade inflation is such a prominent problem in the UK that the majority of universities there won't except a high school degree as adequate to go through college.

 

Sure GCSE's obtained through "highschool" aren't worth the paper its written on, but then again its only for an intermediate level of understanding in core subjects to get into college if wanted and then university.

 

We know some of those over the pond like jumping on buzzwords without knowing the context.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

If you take away jumping on buzzwords without knowing the context, we'd have nothing left!

[Manoka]

Because torture was still legal in Britain up until 1972, and is still widely practiced

 
In 1640 that the practice was formally abolished, unless you call  the stress interrogation techniques as torture of IRA members during Operation Demetrius which was fuck all compared to waterboarding that happens across the pond.
 

>I mean there's more there between scotts and British then most ethnic groups here.

 
We have a mutual love/hate relationship with our neighbours and ourselfs which outsiders don't get.
 

If we want to talk about education, let's look at the British system, of which most other systems in Europe follow.
 
Grade inflation is such a prominent problem in the UK that the majority of universities there won't except a high school degree as adequate to go through college.

 

Sure GCSE's obtained through "highschool" aren't worth the paper its written on, but then again its only for an intermediate level of understanding in core subjects to get into college if wanted and then university.

 

We know some of those over the pond like jumping on buzzwords without knowing the context.

 

Yeah.

 

Well anyways, it wasn't based on buzzwords but a basic analysis of the grades and the government's position on the way they've changed academia. The over-all standards have decreased, so the output of higher grades is admitted to be expected even if it doesn't reflect an increase in capabilities.

 

 

As far as water boarding is concerned, it's believed to be, at best, out sourced to other country's and such, but not directly affiliated to the U.S. At best it's all speculation, since it was never officially done or sanctioned by the U.S.

 

But yeah, 5 thingamajigs and all that, weird punishments were still being used in Britain until at least 1972.

[Ellis]

 

Because torture was still legal in Britain up until 1972, and is still widely practiced

 
In 1640 that the practice was formally abolished, unless you call  the stress interrogation techniques as torture of IRA members during Operation Demetrius which was fuck all compared to waterboarding that happens across the pond.
 

>>I mean there's more there between scotts and British then most ethnic groups here.

lockquote>

 
We have a mutual love/hate relationship with our neighbours and ourselfs which outsiders don't get.
 

>If we want to talk about education, let's look at the British system, of which most other systems in Europe follow.
 
Grade inflation is such a prominent problem in the UK that the majority of universities there won't except a high school degree as adequate to go through college.

 

Sure GCSE's obtained through "highschool" aren't worth the paper its written on, but then again its only for an intermediate level of understanding in core subjects to get into college if wanted and then university.

 

We know some of those over the pond like jumping on buzzwords without knowing the context.

 

Yeah.

 

Well anyways, it wasn't based on buzzwords but a basic analysis of the grades and the government's position on the way they've changed academia. The over-all standards have decreased, so the output of higher grades is admitted to be expected even if it doesn't reflect an increase in capabilities.

 

 

As far as water boarding is concerned, it's believed to be, at best, out sourced to other country's and such, but not directly affiliated to the U.S. At best it's all speculation, since it was never officially done or sanctioned by the U.S.

 

But yeah, 5 thingamajigs and all that, weird punishments were still being used in Britain until at least 1972.

 

 

Oh, America... When we do something, that was wrong, and against the principles of freedom and liberal democracy etc, and we should be ashamed because we're all terrible people.

 

When America does a worse thing, significantly more recently? Well, I mean it's not quite... at best, wasn't really America, just some other guys... not officially sanctioned... Sure it wasn't and if that's what you really believe, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you, too.

 

The whole exceptionalism skit can be a bit wearing at times, to be honest.

[Manoka]

 

Oh, America... When we do something, that was wrong, and against the principles of freedom and liberal democracy etc, and we should be ashamed because we're all terrible people.

 

When America does a worse thing, significantly more recently? Well, I mean it's not quite... at best, wasn't really America, just some other guys... not officially sanctioned... Sure it wasn't and if that's what you really believe, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you, too.

 

The whole exceptionalism skit can be a bit wearing at times, to be honest.

The point was that, it didn't occur in the U.S. at all, and what it suspected to have occurred would have at best still been under someone else's jurisdiction.

 

We may have "let it happen", at worst, which is different from systematically, from the top, performing torture, or endorsing it.

 

 

Like weird shit with the whole spin wheels and whatnot were still being performed in Britain up until just recently.

Edited by Manoka, 25 October 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[the rebel]

Yeah.

 

Well anyways, it wasn't based on buzzwords but a basic analysis of the grades and the government's position on the way they've changed academia. The over-all standards have decreased, so the output of higher grades is admitted to be expected even if it doesn't reflect an increase in capabilities.

 

Already said "highschool" core subjects are taught at intermediate levels, but that changes at college in preperation for university. But it is a buzzword when you're wrongly applying it towards drops in standards across the whole education system when it has only happened at the foundation level.

 

As far as water boarding is concerned, it's believed to be, at best, out sourced to other country's and such, but not directly affiliated to the U.S. At best it's all speculation, since it was never officially done or sanctioned by the U.S.

 

Talk about head-in-sand. It was the Bush administration that approved the use as an enhanced interrogation technique, to which the CIA used. Claiming it didn't happen on US soil so not directly affiliated to the US is ignorance at best.

 

But yeah, 5 thingamajigs and all that, weird punishments were still being used in Britain until at least 1972.

 

During Operation Demetrius and the "weird punishments" at the internment camp according to European Court of Human Rights didn't consitute torture but did breach inhuman and degrading treatment part of the European Convention on Human Rights. So were withdrawn as an aid to interrogation.

[Manoka]

Yeah.

 

Well anyways, it wasn't based on buzzwords but a basic analysis of the grades and the government's position on the way they've changed academia. The over-all standards have decreased, so the output of higher grades is admitted to be expected even if it doesn't reflect an increase in capabilities.

 

Already said "highschool" core subjects are taught at intermediate levels, but that changes at college in preperation for university. But it is a buzzword when you're wrongly applying it towards drops in standards across the whole education system when it has only happened at the foundation level.

 

>>>>As far as water boarding is concerned, it's believed to be, at best, out sourced to other country's and such, but not directly affiliated to the U.S. At best it's all speculation, since it was never officially done or sanctioned by the U.S.

 

Talk about head-in-sand. It was the Bush administration that approved the use as an enhanced interrogation technique, to which the CIA used. Claiming it didn't happen on US soil so not directly affiliated to the US is ignorance at best.

 

But yeah, 5 thingamajigs and all that, weird punishments were still being used in Britain until at least 1972.

 

During Operation Demetrius and the "weird punishments" at the internment camp according to European Court of Human Rights didn't consitute torture but did breach inhuman and degrading treatment part of the European Convention on Human Rights. So were withdrawn as an aid to interrogation.

 

Buzzwords don't have anything to do with it, it's the dropping standards.

 

The difference is isolated incidents where 3 suspects were water boarded, and since it wasn't technically illegal at the time all they could do is make it illegal in the future and relieve those people of their duties. There's all kinds of stories about how it must be a common thing and going on at Guantanamo and all that, but so far there is little evidence to substantiate that. Guantanamo bay houses a military prison, capable of holding an entire army, temporarily if it needs to, and is inspected regularly by U.N. members.

 

 

If there is some kind of regular water boarding or torture going on, it's not occurring anywhere in the U.S., so there's not enough evidence to substantiate it, meaning it's all speculation and at best very rare to keep it secret.

 

Instead of systematic and clearly ingrained methods of torture all the way down to the small unit level involving hundreds if not thousands of captured individuals (many of which were just Irish, as in not even IRA), ranging from the 5 techniques all the way up to the other weird stuff the British did, like spin wheels and such.

Edited by Manoka, 26 October 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[the rebel]

Buzzwords don't have anything to do with it, it's the dropping standards.

 

If you ignore education pass "highschool" but then again why do you need to teach advanced core subjects to under 16's?

 

The difference is isolated incidents where 3 suspects were water boarded, and since it wasn't technically illegal at the time all they could do is make it illegal in the future and relieve those people of their duties. There's all kinds of stories about how it must be a common thing and going on at Guantanamo and all that, but so far there is little evidence to substantiate that. Guantanamo bay houses a military prison, capable of holding an entire army, temporarily if it needs to, and is inspected regularly by U.N. members.

 

Not Illegal....hmmm.

 

United Nations Convention against Torture: United States of America (Signed 18 April 1988) (Ratification 21 October 1994)

Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture: United States of America (unsigned)

 

Regulary inspected was it, so when the United Nations Commission on Human Rights requested inspection, it took 3 years for the US to agree but the inspection was called off as the US had refused to allow them to speak with the prisoners.

 

 

If there is some kind of regular water boarding or torture going on, it's not occurring anywhere in the U.S., so there's not enough evidence to substantiate it, meaning it's all speculation and at best very rare to keep it secret.

 

No kidding that's why they do it out of the US otherwise it would be illegal under US laws.

 

Instead of systematic and clearly ingrained methods of torture all the way down to the small unit level involving hundreds if not thousands of captured individuals (many of which were just Irish, as in not even IRA), ranging from the 5 techniques all the way up to the other weird stuff the British did, like spin wheels and such.

 

Like the internment camps like at Guantánamo where many were just Muslim and not terrorists or linked to terrorism.

 

So yeah the British government were evil torturers of the Irish and IRA (to you and not the European Court of Human Rights) and the USA government were saints and never allowed torture in its war on terror (to you and not many many different organisations and countries).

 

Right gotcha

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Not sure how this changed from a school shooting topic to a lets point fingers at everyone and everything else as being worse than America.

[Manoka]

Buzzwords don't have anything to do with it, it's the dropping standards.

 

If you ignore education pass "highschool" but then again why do you need to teach advanced core subjects to under 16's?

 

>>>The difference is isolated incidents where 3 suspects were water boarded, and since it wasn't technically illegal at the time all they could do is make it illegal in the future and relieve those people of their duties. There's all kinds of stories about how it must be a common thing and going on at Guantanamo and all that, but so far there is little evidence to substantiate that. Guantanamo bay houses a military prison, capable of holding an entire army, temporarily if it needs to, and is inspected regularly by U.N. members.

 

Not Illegal....hmmm.

 

United Nations Convention against Torture: United States of America (Signed 18 April 1988) (Ratification 21 October 1994)

Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture: United States of America (unsigned)

 

Regulary inspected was it, so when the United Nations Commission on Human Rights requested inspection, it took 3 years for the US to agree but the inspection was called off as the US had refused to allow them to speak with the prisoners.

 

 

If there is some kind of regular water boarding or torture going on, it's not occurring anywhere in the U.S., so there's not enough evidence to substantiate it, meaning it's all speculation and at best very rare to keep it secret.

 

No kidding that's why they do it out of the US otherwise it would be illegal under US laws.

 

Instead of systematic and clearly ingrained methods of torture all the way down to the small unit level involving hundreds if not thousands of captured individuals (many of which were just Irish, as in not even IRA), ranging from the 5 techniques all the way up to the other weird stuff the British did, like spin wheels and such.

 

Like the internment camps like at Guantánamo where many were just Muslim and not terrorists or linked to terrorism.

 

So yeah the British government were evil torturers of the Irish and IRA (to you and not the European Court of Human Rights) and the USA government were saints and never allowed torture in its war on terror (to you and not many many different organisations and countries).

 

Right gotcha

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Not sure how this changed from a school shooting topic to a lets point fingers at everyone and everything else as being worse than America.

 

Again, there is no proof about anything going on at Guantanamo, and Guantanamo is inspected all the time.

 

Which Muslims aren't terrorists, who was tortured then and when, etc.

 

 

As of now, the assumptions are that it occurred somewhere else secretly, but there's nothing to substantiate that.

 

And if there is, where is your evidence?

 

 

There's one thing to be a saint, and another to not actively condone or endorse torture.

 

There's also another that if it went on, it may have been an isolated incident or occurred in a prison elsewhere in the world other than Guantanamo, so assuming that because the U.S. aren't saints that they must have done X is just silly.

 

 

My main point is that if people want to assume Europe is somehow more fantastic it doesn't take but a slight look at their history to see otherwise.

 

But, as for the whole U.S. thing, the only thing that's been considered inhumane is forced feedings, which is better than letting a person die, so I'm not sure there's a lot of other choices.

Edited by Manoka, 26 October 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[the rebel]

Again, there is no proof about anything going on at Guantanamo, and Guantanamo is inspected all the time.

 
Inspected by whom? and when the UNCHR was allowed only on the condition they couldn't talk to the inmates,
 

Which Muslims aren't terrorists, who was tortured then and when, etc.

 
When numerous of them had been held for years without trail because of no evidence and pressured for realease then that would suggest they weren't terrorists. 11 of the first 200 sent there are still there without charge.
 

My main point is that if people want to assume Europe is somehow more fantastic it doesn't take but a slight look at their history to see otherwise.

 
Yes the world has had a such a colourful history and most of the shit that has happend in Europe is left in history and are not recent occurrences.
 
The biggest critics are from the ones who have been there in the past... for example an ex-smoker would give out more abuse to a smoker to stop than a non-smoker will
 

 But, as for the whole U.S. thing, the only thing that's been considered inhumane is forced feedings, which is better than letting a person die, so I'm not sure there's a lot of other choices.

 

Amnesty International among others will disagree with you.

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Anyways leaving this trainwreck of a topic now. Peace.

[Manoka]

Again, there is no proof about anything going on at Guantanamo, and Guantanamo is inspected all the time.

 
Inspected by whom? and when the UNCHR was allowed only on the condition they couldn't talk to the inmates,
 

>Which Muslims aren't terrorists, who was tortured then and when, etc.

 
When numerous of them had been held for years without trail because of no evidence and pressured for realease then that would suggest they weren't terrorists. 11 of the first 200 sent there are still there without charge.
 

My main point is that if people want to assume Europe is somehow more fantastic it doesn't take but a slight look at their history to see otherwise.

 
Yes the world has had a such a colourful history and most of the shit that has happend in Europe is left in history and are not recent occurrences.
 
The biggest critics are from the ones who have been there in the past... for example an ex-smoker would give out more abuse to a smoker to stop than a non-smoker will
 

 But, as for the whole U.S. thing, the only thing that's been considered inhumane is forced feedings, which is better than letting a person die, so I'm not sure there's a lot of other choices.

 

Amnesty International among others will disagree with you.

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Anyways leaving this trainwreck of a topic now. Peace.

 

Okay, what is this based on?

 

I can't respond to something without a clearly identifiable basis, I.E. a source.

 

 

Also I provided a source showing that grade inflation is not a buzzword but a real thing.

 

I don't think there's much to go on if you're just going to ignore any basis of concrete information.

[the rebel]

You need sources for the global criticism of GTMO? Try Amnesty International or wiki or UN sites from a google search.

 

Or of course I could be making the whole thing up like a bloke at a party trying to get into a girl knickers by saying impressive lies, because I provided zero sources.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

GITMO is pretty universally condemned, as well it should be.  It is basically the American government's secret punishment dome, where anyone labeled with the nebulously-defined moniker of "terrorist" can be detained indefinitely, without due process, in direct violation of the United States Constitution.  But the SCOTUS has ruled it not US territory and therefore not under US jurisdiction.  Convenient, huh?

[Manoka]

GITMO is pretty universally condemned, as well it should be.  It is basically the American government's secret punishment dome, where anyone labeled with the nebulously-defined moniker of "terrorist" can be detained indefinitely, without due process, in direct violation of the United States Constitution.  But the SCOTUS has ruled it not US territory and therefore not under US jurisdiction.  Convenient, huh?

Sure, what is this based on?