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Russia is invading Ukraine.


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#41 Daniel P

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:13 PM

 

 


The Crimean Peninsula may be self governed, but they are still part of Ukraine, and as far as I've heard, the Ukrainian government hasn't been doing

any sort of horrible deeds to the population, I would have had no problem with Russia if all they would have done was secure their Naval base. But occupying

the entire Crimean Peninsula is going to far. And let's not forget, even if the majority of the population is Russian, not everyone is.

 

Regardless they still asked and Russia complied with the pretext of protecting the 60% Russian ethnic population in Crimea. Whether its right or wrong is meaningless since it isn't going to make Russia go "my bad, sorry"

 

Russia isn't there to protect shit. They are jackasses that still think they should control all of the former Soviet Union.

This is like Israel "protecting" themselves by occupying all of Palestine all over again.

And the attitude that people are having about the illegal occupation of Crimea is horrible.

But nah sure: "It's fine if a country we trade shit with does it. I mean, we wouldn't want the trade to die out, that would harm our people

as well, not just the people they are invading."

 

 

But I've had enough of this, either you are the biggest troll I've meet on this forum or you have no empathy and morals.

 

Actually, Manoka is the biggest troll here. The Rebel just dares to think for himself. :D

 

I can disagree with that statement. Manoka is just writing down his views(opinion) on his topics. Sure he can troll but there is people who Troll more then him.

 

or you want the Great Wall of Manoka(Text)



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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:27 PM

The Crimea has only been part of Ukraine since 1954.  Before that it was part of Russia.  And before that it was the object of centuries of tug-of-war.  The population is mostly Russian now, and by all reports they seem pretty happy to see the Russians there.  They're gonna keep it.



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#43 Manoka

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:36 PM

It depends on how things go down. Even if they keep Crimeria there's a good chance Russia is going to get a lot of backlash from this, and will definitely create a refugee crisis as the Ukrainians leave after not wanting to be under Russian control. 

 

This is going to put a lot of weight on Russia who is the only one to yet openly use military force; it's like their issue with the Afghanistan soviet war; Russia has been doing a lot of crazy things recently, from banning talking about gays to arming Syrian and probably Iranian despots. Now they've made their move, not through a proxy (like Vietnam or Cuba), but through their own military. Russia tends to get like this when they're desperate, and it's sloppy and revealing.

 

 

With that in mind the soviet Afghanistan war ended in 1988 as a crushing defeat, and the soviet union ended in 1991. Spetsnaz special forces units were given the order to kill the new president, and they later became his personal bodyguard. Likely, the Russian soldiers aren't just evil; looking at some of their faces in photographs, they don't seem to want to be there, many are likely questioning the leadership as is.

 

Russia is in a tight spot. No matter what they do, they look untrustworthy and crazy. Half a century year old dispute in a hostile territory that just barely counts as a majority of Russians to be controlled violently, without any foreseeable benefit other than a power grab? 

 

 

With the way Russia has been going recently this is liable to go south. However, there are other ways to pry at Russia, both economically and politically. 

 

Since were are already talking about trade sanctions, it seems we're going to go that route. As horrific as it is, all we really have to do is wait it out. Ukraine's people and military aren't going to budge, and Russia will likely make the first move, like they already have; even worse, keeping up logistics in a foreign country means the clock is ticking; Ukraine has the homefield advantage, so their troops can be walking around their own country with no repercussions. That will give us a greenlight to do whatever we want, and Russia will likely back down. They can't afford to have a war over this, and the U.N. recognizes ukraine's sovereignty, meaning the whole world is against them. The question is how bad will the damage be.


Edited by Manoka, 03 March 2014 - 02:38 PM.


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#44 the rebel

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:56 PM

Russia isn't there to protect shit. They are jackasses that still think they should control all of the former Soviet Union.

This is like Israel "protecting" themselves by occupying all of Palestine all over again.

 

Well 60% of Crimea view themselves as ethnic Russian, how much of Palestine viewed themselves as Israeli before the occupation? Answer on a postage stamp my friend.

 

And the attitude that people are having about the illegal occupation of Crimea is horrible.

But nah sure: "It's fine if a country we trade shit with does it. I mean, we wouldn't want the trade to die out, that would harm our people

as well, not just the people they are invading."

 

What can the West realistically do?

 

1)

 

Over a third of oil comes from Russia

Over a third of gas comes from Russia

Nearly a third of coal comes from Russia

 

So that economic sanctions out of the question, because Europe's economy would crumble with Russia's, both world wars used a fucked up economy as a pretext to global war. No country is willing to force that to happen again.

 

2)

 

Support Ukraine with words, which could make them be overly confident and lead to them attacking Russian/Crimean forces (see Georgia 2008)

 

3) Draw a line and warn Russia not to cross into any other part of Ukraine or be meet with war.

 

4) Diplomacy: Russia gets a more autonomous Crimea (see Georgia 2008)

 

Not a lot of options. 3 and 4 is a win for Russia without ever firing a bullet.

 

But I've had enough of this, either you are the biggest troll I've meet on this forum or you have no empathy and morals.

 

Looking at all sides of a story and mentioning the Russian side as a means of debate is trolling....

 

Damn if you think I've turned on trolling mode in this debate you must be new to internet debates.



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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:05 PM

Ukraine will not attack Russia or Russian forces.  They are woefully outmanned and outgunned.



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#46 Alyster

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:03 PM

Ukraine will not attack Russia or Russian forces.  They are woefully outmanned and outgunned.


While I too think they won't attack Russians, I do not agree on your assessment of the situation. Ukraine has:

  • Lost the naval combat at Black sea already. But currently their main route of supply would come in from West, thus it's not that bad.
  • They are capable of excising air supremacy in Ukrainian air space. Their strike planes are very dangerous to Black sea fleet, in Ukranian harbours. 
  • Russia has in the region (Western and Southern Defense Districts) 3 armies: the 49th, 6th and 20th + spetsnaz. Ukraine can match it currently with 3 army corps: 6th, 8th and 13th + airbornes & berkut. However they've been given sufficent time by now to mobilize, this means they are tapping into their conscripts in reserves and could effectively extend their forces. Although we heavily lack information on the detailed structure of Russian armies currently and exactly what kind of forces they've deployed to the region, in basic 101 military theory corps is sufficent unit to carry out defensive operations against an army; much like a battalion should be able to hold off a brigade. Russia being forced to sustain military presence at Georgian, Polish and Baltic borders with the same military districts could not deploy 100%, while Ukrainian forces are rapidly growing. 

 

Russia does have advantages in special units. Mainly spetznas and military intel. However the 2008 Georgian conflict demonstrated how helpless they were at deploying such modifiers. Russian Georgian battles happened when someone spotted the enemy, they were not preplanned nor carried out well for that matter. Georgian special forces even guided their artillery brigade's fire so well that one Russian general was knocked out of service. 

 

 

Aside Crimea peninsula if Ukraine decides to fight and is able to excise proper military command in all of the internal mess they can put up a hell of a show. To brake it Russia would have to pool in extra resources from other military districts and still carry notable losses. Ukraine is not a walk over and the cost of full scale conquest would out weigh any profits. Thus it's probably unlikely as well.


Edited by Alyster, 03 March 2014 - 06:10 PM.


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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:49 PM

Well, I am no expert.  I am simply repeating the consensus of opinion I have read/heard/seen on the situation.  I am not aware of any assessment that bodes well for the Ukrainian government.

 

Here's the thing:  To most Westerners, Ukraine is Russia.  And the truth is that the difference is really pretty academic to anyone but the parties involved, and even some of them are ambivalent.  I know Ukrainians who interchangeably refer to themselves as "Ukrainian" and "Russian" both.  The ethnic lines are not always so clear.  Hell, the Russian state STARTED in Ukraine, in the entity known as Kievan Rus.

 

Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine are all part of what might be thought of as the Greater Pan-Russian Nation.  For most of the past three centuries, Russia has had real or de facto control of Ukraine (and Belarus).  It is a well-established part of their sphere of influence.  From a purely realpolitik point of view, there is a rationale for letting them have it.  Large nation-states with spheres of influence have a lot to lose, and an inherent interest in stability, which is good for peace. 

 

The West has nothing to gain (other than some ephemeral notion of "putting Putin in his place") and everything to lose by going to war over Ukraine.  To paraphrase George Herbert Walker Bush, read my lips:  Not gonna happen.

 

SHOULD it happen?  As in morally?  That's a separate discussion, and one I am happy to have, so long as we understand that nation-states do not think or operate in such terms.  Which is not to say that wars cannot still happen, even large-scale ones.  But not over Ukraine.

 

Russia is going to keep the Crimea.  This is really not going to be all that big a deal, inasmuch as the majority of the population there supports the Russian military presence.  It was part of Russia until 1954 anyway.  The big question is whether Russia will also attempt to take some portion of the eastern provinces, which have high ethnic Russian populations to varying extents.  That could be a major problem, because that region accounts for the bulk of Ukraine's industrial base, and they likely are not a viable country without it (although I'm never quite sure what they mean by "viable country"; freaking Moldova is a country — if they can do it, something tells me a rump Western Ukraine could pull it off; but I digress).  So the big question is going to be how much Putin wants to throw his weight around, and how much he can push it before he risks serious economic sanctions that he likely would not want.  My guess is that Russia keeps Crimea and that the eastern provinces are given more autonomy within Ukraine, cutting the legs out from under the new, pro-Western Ukrainian government (because their regional governments are likely to be much more pro-Moscow).

 

But like I said, I'm no expert.  I just read a lot.  :)



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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:14 PM

I don't consider Ukraine, Russia. I know they are two separate entities

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#49 Manoka

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:16 PM

The issue here is that the protesters are far less controllable; they're violent and liable to attack the Russians, and when that happens, the Russians are liable to respond by attacking en masse and indiscriminately, calling on the Ukraine military. If Russia goes to a full scale mobilization of Ukraine then there's the obvious issue of it being a clear war. 

 

How putin sells it to Russia idk; but, I do know it will prompt invasion by the U.N. and U.S.

 

 

Regardless of what some may think, fossil fuels really aren't that important. There are numerous sources in the world and Russia has no power if it's primary source of revenue is cut off, of which they're already facing hard economic times as is. They make up, maybe, 5% of the GDP of most countries, all considered; they're more or less easy to pay for. At the worst, America has sources secured in the middle east including Iraq and Afghanistan that we aren't using (and the U.S. gets pretty much no oil from Russia), and Canada has more than enough that it was directing towards the U.S. that it isn't anymore (such as the failed keystone pipeline deal) which it really doesn't want to give to China as evidenced by their delay to do so and worrying U.S. rejection.

 

If anything, it means more money for current oil suppliers not on the Russian side I.E. western sources. So, I doubt that will be a major issue for them. 

 

 

 

What's really important, politically, is this makes Russia looks horrible. 

 

If we come in for the Rescue to the Ukraine, Syria, Chechnya, and so on, we'll more or less have the lee way to do whatever we want when it comes to Russia, who has stood in our way on many issues. They now appear to be bad guys. Although in my opinion it's obvious they are.

 

 

Anyways, the one good thing Russia has going for it are they're Spetsnaz, but their leaders are too incompetent to know how to use them. In Chechnya they lied to them and sent them out on the front line, claiming they were fighting measly bandits, when their enemies clearly had knowledge of tactics and were extremely motivated, in fact suicidal. They have little to no air support, artillery, or other kinds of things, and they often were wiped out just due to bad intel, despite their training and skill, since they were sent in to missions with often, purposely bad or covered up intel, and followed intel to the letter which was more or less a bad operating procedure (such as entering an area over open terrain and such). They not only caused failure for the Spetsnaz, but ended up wiping out huge chunks of their most valuable troops.

 

We saw the same kind of thing in Georgia and even in Afghanistan. Hannibal, with unloyal, poorly equipped, poorly trained, poorly motivated, exhausted mercenaries who had lost about half their forces crossing through the alps fought against the largest army Rome had ever assembled, and crushed them, despite being half their size, and lost about 3000 troops, while practically wiping out all the Romans (over 70,000), leaving a few thousand as captives. Strategy and tactics, above all else, won the day. With the incompetent military leadership we've been seeing at the top it's liable to end the same way. 


Edited by Manoka, 03 March 2014 - 10:37 PM.


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#50 Manoka

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:17 PM

Well, I am no expert.  I am simply repeating the consensus of opinion I have read/heard/seen on the situation.  I am not aware of any assessment that bodes well for the Ukrainian government.

 

Here's the thing:  To most Westerners, Ukraine is Russia.  And the truth is that the difference is really pretty academic to anyone but the parties involved, and even some of them are ambivalent.  I know Ukrainians who interchangeably refer to themselves as "Ukrainian" and "Russian" both.  The ethnic lines are not always so clear.  Hell, the Russian state STARTED in Ukraine, in the entity known as Kievan Rus.

 

Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine are all part of what might be thought of as the Greater Pan-Russian Nation.  For most of the past three centuries, Russia has had real or de facto control of Ukraine (and Belarus).  It is a well-established part of their sphere of influence.  From a purely realpolitik point of view, there is a rationale for letting them have it.  Large nation-states with spheres of influence have a lot to lose, and an inherent interest in stability, which is good for peace. 

 

The West has nothing to gain (other than some ephemeral notion of "putting Putin in his place") and everything to lose by going to war over Ukraine.  To paraphrase George Herbert Walker Bush, read my lips:  Not gonna happen.

 

SHOULD it happen?  As in morally?  That's a separate discussion, and one I am happy to have, so long as we understand that nation-states do not think or operate in such terms.  Which is not to say that wars cannot still happen, even large-scale ones.  But not over Ukraine.

 

Russia is going to keep the Crimea.  This is really not going to be all that big a deal, inasmuch as the majority of the population there supports the Russian military presence.  It was part of Russia until 1954 anyway.  The big question is whether Russia will also attempt to take some portion of the eastern provinces, which have high ethnic Russian populations to varying extents.  That could be a major problem, because that region accounts for the bulk of Ukraine's industrial base, and they likely are not a viable country without it (although I'm never quite sure what they mean by "viable country"; freaking Moldova is a country — if they can do it, something tells me a rump Western Ukraine could pull it off; but I digress).  So the big question is going to be how much Putin wants to throw his weight around, and how much he can push it before he risks serious economic sanctions that he likely would not want.  My guess is that Russia keeps Crimea and that the eastern provinces are given more autonomy within Ukraine, cutting the legs out from under the new, pro-Western Ukrainian government (because their regional governments are likely to be much more pro-Moscow).

 

But like I said, I'm no expert.  I just read a lot.  :)

Just like there was no Korean war, no Vietnam war, no attempts of an invasion into Cuba, and so on. xP

 

At the very least, we wanted to station missiles and other weaponry in Ukraine because it's a strategically important position next to Russia, Europe, and the middle east; we've taken other strategically important positions such as in Grenada or Panama, so it's important at least in that respect. 


Edited by Manoka, 03 March 2014 - 08:21 PM.


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#51 Redezra

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:54 AM

Svojtot, darling, as I'm sure you're quickly learning, Manoka is a fool, an idiot, a moron, uneducated, annoying, and quite easily the most stupid person on these fine forums. Don't argue with him, just ignore him. There is nothing behind his monitor worth arguing to, and he's certainly not smart enough to be able to change his opinion.



#52 Manoka

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:35 PM

Svojtot, darling, as I'm sure you're quickly learning, Manoka is a fool, an idiot, a moron, uneducated, annoying, and quite easily the most stupid person on these fine forums. Don't argue with him, just ignore him. There is nothing behind his monitor worth arguing to, and he's certainly not smart enough to be able to change his opinion.

People only call me stupid when they can't prove me wrong. xP



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#53 Manoka

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:29 PM

TL;DR 

 

America at least thinks they're the good guys. 

 

Most wars we've been in have had little to any real resources to grab up with the countries we're in, even Iraq and Afghanistan, and we wouldn't expect to get that much any. 

 

 

While I personally do think we're the good guys, whatever the case is, we don't do it for money, since it makes little to no sense, most the countries we invade don't even have valuable resources, and those that do have ridiculously overpriced resources that would take a lot to obtain and, we aren't getting any from anyways (I.E. oil from iraq is going to France and China). You would spend more money on any war then you could possibly hope to get by stealing any one resource. 

 

At worst America does it for strategic reasons and national security, to remain the most powerful guy on the block and shake our fists at all the bad guys just to keep us in power and keep showing the world we're necessary. Rival gangs kill each other over "turf" and who has control over which area, even if it doesn't make a lot of money. Rome had little to gain by taking over most the areas it did, other than raw power and influence. 

 

 

 

From what it appears though Russia is backing down a little! Mostly due to trade sanctions and the subsequent market drop. 


Edited by Manoka, 04 March 2014 - 01:32 PM.


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#54 Alyster

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 04:52 PM

What economical sanctions? EU is in so early stages of their debates they probably haven't even decided if Ukraine exists or not. Also the biggest loser on the stock market has been Gazprom so far. And that's just temporary - foreign investors selling because they are scared of the uncertain future of the gas pipelines going through Ukraine. If nothing bad happens the stock will pop back up with no problem. And not like the majority share holder minds it - after all the state ha 50.01%. 

 

Russia probably starting to back down because its' military objectives have been met. They managed to take control of Crimea with out any fight. Bravo. And there's nothing anyone can do about it. I wanted to add that the locals should start learning Russian, cause that's in what language the orders will be coming from now on. But they're already fluent at that. 

 

Actually I think that GOP in US has something to learn from here. Lets see now:

1) Know your enemy. Russians executed the operations with out any victims. They didn't start a civil war between lets say sunnis and shias.

2) Know your economy. They're closing it before any major sanctions start to take effect. They didn't open a multi trillion USD war for 10 years.

3) Exit strategy, exit strategy, exit strategy!


Edited by Alyster, 04 March 2014 - 05:20 PM.


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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:51 PM

The locals already speak Russian.  The locals are Russian.  That's kind of the point.  One of the reasons this isn't turning into a bigger deal is that the people in the Crimea are mostly supportive of Russia's actions.  Remember, the Crimea wasn't part of Ukraine until 1954, when it was given to them as part of one Nikita Khrushchev's interminable organizational reshuffles (seriously, that guy was worse than me).

 

Ukrainian and Russian are mutually intelligible.  In fact some linguists would argue that Ukrainian isn't really a language at all, but a dialect of Russian.  Same debate about Belorusian.  To-may-to, to-mah-to.



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#56 Thrash

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:55 PM

*
POPULAR

1456057_1450754395158772_1971255234_n.jp



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#57 rotty

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:41 PM

1456057_1450754395158772_1971255234_n.jp

I <3 this so much  :D



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#58 Daniel P

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:25 PM

1456057_1450754395158772_1971255234_n.jp

 

 

Anchorman-well-that-escalated-quickly.jp



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#59 Phate

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 01:57 AM

1456057_1450754395158772_1971255234_n.jp


One thing that's always bothered me:
xOsr8Dn.jpg

france-flag.gif

They're the same colors :awesome:

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:16 AM

Why do you support the terrorists, Phate?

 

'MURICA!



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