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#21 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:18 AM

Iraq's biggest problem is that it's not really a country at all.  Realistically it should be three countries.  But I can't see the United States going back in, at least not before the 2016 presidential election.



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#22 the rebel

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:37 AM

Iraq's biggest problem is that it's not really a country at all. Realistically it should be three countries. But I can't see the United States going back in, at least not before the 2016 presidential election.


No it should be one country remember people can't just declare its theirs and it is.

I can see Putin waiting in the shadows for a gotcha Obama moment :P

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#23 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:42 AM

Iraq's borders were drawn more or less arbitrarily by the British in the early 20th century, without any consideration of realities on the ground.  Ideally it should probably be a Kurdish state, a Sunni Arab state, and a Shi'ite Arab state.  At this point I think we should just let it be Iran's problem.



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#24 Manoka

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:33 PM

Refusal to allow food into a country that cannot sustain itself will lead to thousands of deaths in starvation alone. This also does not take into consideration crime from desperate people.

 

The U.S. didn't deny all food aid, or medical aids, and created the oil for food program and so on. 



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#25 *Anastasia

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:47 PM

Yes, the Oil for Food Programme. Or as people with eyes call it, extortion.

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#26 Thrash

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:50 PM

Gruesome Footage Of ISIS Atrocities Reveals Al Qaeda Jihadists "Will Stop At Nothing"

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#27 the rebel

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:52 PM

Iraq's borders were drawn more or less arbitrarily by the British in the early 20th century, without any consideration of realities on the ground. Ideally it should probably be a Kurdish state, a Sunni Arab state, and a Shi'ite Arab state. At this point I think we should just let it be Iran's problem.


Sure, doubt Turkey and others would be pleased since a Kurdish state claim cuts through at least three countries.

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#28 *Anastasia

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:52 PM

Gruesome Footage Of ISIS Atrocities Reveals Al Qaeda Jihadists "Will Stop At Nothing"


NO NO NO IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REBELS THAT WAS ALL PERPETRATED BY ASSAD'S FORCES. WHY ARE YOU SUPPORTING AN EVIL DICTATOR‽

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#29 the rebel

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:54 PM

American withholding action would just bring Iraq and Iran more closer together

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:58 PM

Sure, doubt Turkey and others would be pleased since a Kurdish state claim cuts through at least three countries.

 

That's definitely a problem, and the primary reason why Iraqi Kurdistan is not an independent country.  Turkey is a regional player that the US does not wish to antagonize, especially with a resurgent Russia.



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#31 Manoka

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 01:40 PM

Here

 

http://en.wikipedia....uring_sanctions

 

Sanctions or not it will not affect a dictator. Just look at North Korea Jim Jong Un the more Sanctions we put he will not budge.

 

EDIT: Saddam Hussein should not gassed the Kurdish people and the whole nation suffered as a result. But being fair I think the humanitarian AIDs will not help the Iraq people. I think it will go straight to the military.

Thanks for the source, this is actually credible, in that it was cited frequently. However, it was still an estimate, and not a real figure. 

 

Since the U.S. did provide food aid and allowed it, along with many other kinds including medical aid, with the oil for food program and others, they didn't remove the Iraq's people food or other necessary resources. Furthermore, while they suggest that Iraq's condition worsened (such as literacy rates going down), I doubt people would have legitimately forget how to read. More likely, Iraq over inflated his own figures and then afterwords revealed conditions weren't as good as Saddam reported to begin with. He lied about plenty of more things. 

 

 

The guy who did this study however, Richard Garfield, suggested that all sanctions must lead to restrictions to food and medical aid, even though these were not specifically targeted. He says that there must have been deaths, but since the U.S. didn't target these areas it's all speculation. We would have for instance, expected to find more records of these deaths, which don't exist.  ""In many countries," he wrote, "the embargo-related lack of capital was more important than direct restrictions on importing medicine or food."" 

 

" that U.S.-led sanctions were killing "5,000 children a month" in Iraq. Meanwhile, on the Iraqi government's own Web site, the number of under-5 deaths from all causes for the month of September was listed as 2,932."- In essence, these figures were never truly substantiated, and Saddam claimed nearly every death was due to sanctions in the first place. [1

 

 

 

The most credible source would be by UNICEF, however it too does not directly implicate the sanctions. In fact, it never mentioned the sanctions at all in it's reports. 

 

"Significantly, UNICEF found child mortality actually decreased in the autonomous north (from 80.2 per 1,000 in 1984-89 to 70.8 in 1994-98) while more than doubling in the south (from 56 per 1,000 to 130.6). This is Exhibit A for those who, like The New Republic, argue that Saddam alone is responsible for Iraq's humanitarian crisis. When the report was released, UNICEF Executive Director Carol Bellamy attributed the difference in mortality trends to "the large amount of international aid pumped into northern Iraq at the end of the [Persian Gulf] war."

 

More or less, while mortality rates seemed to increase according to unicef, it was predominately in the southern region, the Region Saddam had been in control. And the problems started occurring before the sanctions took place, as well. Still, compared to previous estimates of the mortality rates, the new one took the estimates without help from Iraq's government, while the old one's took just the Iraq governments estimates. At the time, Iraq was trying to cover up the fatalities, so these are estimated to be much lower than the actual figures. 

 

[2] "Data from household surveys are plotted in the above chart, with all points from a single survey joined  together with a line. The thick blue line, labeled "CURRRENT MORTALITY ESTIMATES", shows  UNICEF’s current estimates of the under-five mortality rate in Iraq, and are derived from the survey \ data. Methodology for these estimates can be found at http://www.childinfo.../kh98meth.html."

 

 

In any case, while arguments have been made that large civilian casualties MUST have resulted from the sanctions, even though they didn't target things like food and water, there still isn't substantial evidence of a direct cause. 

 

For instance, assertions were made that since Chlorine was banned, the lack of water purification must have resulted in people dying or at least created discomfort. However, the U.N. counsel resolutions never actually banned Chlorine in Iraq; in fact, they shipped over 15 million kilograms of it to Iraq, who was only using approximately 10 of those millions. [3] In fact there were allegations that this could unintentionally be arming Saddam since they were supplying too much Chlorine; so, many of the assertions that these estimates were based on have proven to be generally unfounded. Since they are estimates, it's not exactly solid evidence in the first place. 

 

Lastly, the U.S. was not responsible for these sanctions, but the U.N. But that's a small issue.

 

 

 

More or less, we can sum this up in 3 primary ways. 

 

1. The figures given were estimates, not true numbers. Their estimates tended to be higher than the actual death tolls recorded during the time, for example.  It not only would be impossible but must grossly over exaggerate the figure, since not ALL deaths could possibly be a result of sanctions (some would be natural causes, accidents, murder etc.). 

 

2. They were based on a number of asserted logical principles that were later proven wrong, such as  the banning of food, medical supplies, or Chlorine in Iraq, when this wasn't the case. 

 

3. The most credible sources do not implicate the sanctions and actually specifically illustrated that it was largely Saddam responsible for the increase of deaths, which were somewhat strangely exaggerated. Even sources that agree that the sanctions killed a lot more people than was reported believe that these estimates were largely over exaggerated. Even if we reduced this to a more realistic number it's difficult to say that the sanctions truly killed as many people as reported. 


Edited by Manoka, 13 June 2014 - 02:06 PM.


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#32 Redezra

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 12:01 AM

I'm interested in Anna's opinion on ISIS.



#33 Justavictim82

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 12:06 AM

Manoka: Do you really think that food from the oil for food program actually went to those who needed it or toward soldiers/military personnel? Lok at North Korea and tell me otherwise.

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#34 Rogal Dorn

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:54 AM

Iraq's biggest problem is that it's not really a country at all.  Realistically it should be three countries.  But I can't see the United States going back in, at least not before the 2016 presidential election.

 
a fucking men. I like the kurds, a lot. i think they should have their own country as well. the peshmerga are bad asses who don't take no shit from anyone. they're hardened and resilient force who are probably the most disciplined fighters in iraq.
 
Also. I'll say this, I'm very glad that Iran has offered to help Iraq. More of this regional cooperation needs to happen and less outside interference. They should help one another out instead of constantly looking over their shoulder at western countries saying "how about some help and free shit"
 
source: http://www.bbc.com/n...e-east-27847498

kcj9wTl.gif
http://i.imgur.com/kcj9wTl.gif
 
also, cool map i found about ISIS
 
bjJVpYR.gif

why the fuck isnt this map showing up... well, here's the link -> http://i.imgur.com/bjJVpYR.gif

Edited by Rogal 'trouble' Dorn, 14 June 2014 - 07:59 AM.


#35 Thrash

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:00 AM

oh you want maps, i got maps and i got an updated one for yours

 

20140613_map1.jpg

 

 

20140613_map2.jpg

 

20140613_map3_0.jpg

 

20140613_map4.jpg

 

20140613_map5_0.jpg



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#36 Rogal Dorn

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:02 AM

oh you want maps, i got maps and i got an updated one for yours
 
20140613_map1.jpg
 
 
20140613_map2.jpg
 
20140613_map3_0.jpg
 
20140613_map4.jpg
 
20140613_map5_0.jpg


i fucking love maps! but for some reason no images are loading on my laptop so i can't see any of them (and why i added links to the map's url)

#37 Thrash

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:05 AM

knockin on Baghdad's door now.



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#38 Rogal Dorn

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:08 AM

lol i got out of bed, turned off my laptop and hopped on my desktop just to see the maps. did i mention i love maps?



#39 Redezra

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:18 AM

Lol :P



#40 Daniel P

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 11:25 AM

lol i got out of bed, turned off my laptop and hopped on my desktop just to see the maps. did i mention i love maps?

 

I more of a charts persons but I love maps too.



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