Jump to content


Photo

Bernie Sanders


  • Please log in to reply
111 replies to this topic

#21 Evil Rudekker

Evil Rudekker
  • Invicta: Knight
  • 703 posts
  • Location:Riverwest, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
  • Ruler Name:Rudekker
  • Nation Name:Riverwest
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link

Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:43 PM

"A worker is paid in relation to the skill level required of their job. And as the one who is actually paying the employee the owner can set any rate you want and one can simply not work there, that is your right. It is not an obligation of the millionaire to provide you with an amazing paying job."

You are correct. But it's not right for one person--be it a king, a baron, or a CEO--to hold all the cards. The workers must also be empowered to negotiate their conditions. One person cannot do this alone, but the workers together can. If not, you have one guy with all the power surrounded by his vassals. Vassals have no place in America.

Also, "just leaving a job" is not an option for people with families. You want to be pro-family, you vote pro-union.

Edited by Evil Rudekker, 25 June 2012 - 02:45 PM.


#22 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:44 PM

Uhhh.... 1 & 6???


Yeah I screwed that up. All those Swedish names sound the same. Fixed.

The greatest success of the Republican party over the past thirty years has been getting people like Thrash to vote for a party that is actually against their economic interests.

Member Awards ()

#23 Redezra

Redezra

    ~>:BAMF:<~

  • Invicta: Knight
  • 7728 posts
  • Gender:Sentient artificial intelligence - identifies as female
  • Location::D
  • Ruler Name:Redezra
  • Nation Name:Jorostopia
  • IRC Nick:Redezra
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link


Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:20 PM

A worker is paid in relation to the skill level required of their job. And as the one who is actually paying the employee the owner can set any rate you want and one can simply not work there, that is your right. It is not an obligation of the millionaire to provide you with an amazing paying job.


This is a good point, and something socialists do stick to. Also, yes Ruddeker, I'm not your stock standard socialist, although their policies are the best middle ground we're going to find, and they are an exceptional base from whence to begin.

Yes these people are the ones who help make the weathly rich, but it is a trade. You go to the store and pay for what you need, you find the best prices you reward those who have made the best product. You make them rich but it is your choice who you make rich. It will never be right for someone to be forced to support another.


No, this is utterly incorrect. A simple "well in theory it works" does not excuse the fact that the system promotes those who bypass and exploit the shit out of it. You have a choice who to make rich, but once they are rich your choice is severely limited, as they could quickly buy out or outproduce small time competitors. The wealthy should be forced to support the poor to at least a sane quality of living. I'm not saying free checks for all, but as long as a man is willing to work, he should be afforded a house, a car, and a job. These should be basic rights for a western world, not only for the people, but for the efficiency and output of a nation. Surely you could see how that would be beneficial, if say every person in America was not worrying about how they were going to make it through the day, and a near 0 unemployment rate?

Many people state this is the way forward but would you give up your computer that you are posting this on to someone below the poverty line? Everyone wants there to be a transfer of wealth but no one wants to do it themselves, and why should they? Most of us have worked hard for our stuff and want to be able to enjoy it.


You are taking this too far. I do not advocate communism. You should be rewarded for your hard work, but you should not take that to the extreme of keeping *everything* you own. That is greed. That is anti-human. That is simply being an asshole, when people who gave you their wealth are without food, water or shelter. Now I understand that the human condition implies greed, which is why the state should come into this. They are the ones that we give the power to make these decisions.

If we kept a strict laissez faire capitilism system then it would allow for a more fluid class system. Those companies who fall and go bankrupt should not be bailed out because it keeps the same failed people in charge. However if we just leave it all alone those businesses who provide the best innovation and best products will rise, and should there come a day when they are not the best they will be replaced. The bailouts/loans annoy me most within the energy sector: The DoE has sent hundreds of millions to energy companies that have shown no possible merit to accept. These companies tended to be Obama finacial supporters and many of them actually went bankrupt. This has hurt the alternative energy sector businesses that are actually doing well off.


Again, you are simply excusing the system with an "In theory it works". This is wrong, just like how communism, in theory, works, but we have never seen a fully communist and functional society, capitalism, in theory, works... but we have never seen a fully capitalist and functional society. It is quite simple, if certain companies fall, the world falls with them. This is the fault with the stock exchange, this is the fault with such trading underpinning our concept of success and wealth. It is inherently an abstract and fickle material. The world is not congruent with a capitalist system, it can never work.

Anyway, as for the alternative energy sector, the thing that really pisses me off is that your government has decided "Oh yes, it's of extreme importance to the people" but then turned around and said "so who wants to do it?". The problem lies not with the fact that your companies are damn stupid, but with the fact that your government is such a bunch of lazy pussies that they won't get off their fat asses and do what needs to be done. The state should drive this. They should micromanage it, they should set it up, and they should be the first competitor in the market, cause they're the only ones who give a fuck. They are the will of the people, and if the people want, they had better damn well do.

Picture this:
You own a food market and get a loan for 700k then someone opens a food market right down the street and gets a government subsidized loan of about 10 million. How can one even compete with that? The subsidized market will probably outlast yours and the same thing is happening to our companies.

The book Atlas Shrugged may have at one time seemed far-fetched and unreasonable but I feel that we are headed in that direction.


Oh, it's solveable. In one such system a second food market would not be permitted to be opened. Why? Because that would upset the careful balance of the area, drive down costs, drive up competition, production, etc. And lead to widespread growth. Growth, is bad. If you grow too much, you exhaust resources on maintainance. Neutral growth must be maintained, and so, everything is overseen by a vast governing system. Money is heavily spent into education, gearing the new people with knowledge to expand into fields that are not yet explored, improving innovation into new product.

It's very different, but that's one solution. There are a number. None of them you will stomach, I will assume.

Also if anyone ever mentions that bloody Ayn Rand again, I will find you, and ram her book down your throat. The woman sickens me. Her beliefs are based in premises of selfishness, greed, contempt for her common man, and a serious misinterpretation of the human condition. In short, she is very, very wrong.

#24 Haflinger

Haflinger

    Flipper

  • Foreign Diplomat
  • 10259 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Ruler Name:Haflinger
  • Nation Name:Llonach
  • IRC Nick:Haflinger
  • Nation Link

Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:21 PM

I'm not sure what ism I fall under.

I severely distrust all large organizations. Doesn't matter if it's the United Nations, the Roman Catholic Church, the IRS, Bell Canada, Coca-Cola or Citigroup: when you abstract leadership away too much from the people whose lives are controlled by these entities, then you get abuses.

Generally I think money is a bad idea, and would prefer a barter economy. Money abstracts wealth and introduces bankers, who deliver you into the hands of some of those large organizations I already mentioned.

However I am aware that pretty much all of our economic systems use money to a large extent, sooo ... well I dunno. :nyancat:

Member Awards ()

#25 Redezra

Redezra

    ~>:BAMF:<~

  • Invicta: Knight
  • 7728 posts
  • Gender:Sentient artificial intelligence - identifies as female
  • Location::D
  • Ruler Name:Redezra
  • Nation Name:Jorostopia
  • IRC Nick:Redezra
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link


Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:27 PM

The solution is to change the basic trade system from money to energy :P

No seriously, go look it up.

#26 Thrash

Thrash

    not as gay

  • Former Member
  • 9559 posts
  • Location:Poconos, PA
  • Ruler Name:Thrash
  • Nation Name:Machas
  • IRC Nick:Thrash[Invicta]
  • Nation Link

Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:38 PM

The greatest success of the Republican party over the past thirty years has been getting people like Thrash to vote for a party that is actually against their economic interests.


Shut up.

Member Awards ()

#27 Redezra

Redezra

    ~>:BAMF:<~

  • Invicta: Knight
  • 7728 posts
  • Gender:Sentient artificial intelligence - identifies as female
  • Location::D
  • Ruler Name:Redezra
  • Nation Name:Jorostopia
  • IRC Nick:Redezra
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link


Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:12 PM

Shut up.


But he speaks the truth! The blinding, mindbending truth! :P

#28 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 25 June 2012 - 08:09 PM

Let's make this simple.

The Human Development Index is the standard measure of a country's standard of living. The top ten nations on the 2011 HDI:

  • Norway
  • Australia
  • Netherlands
  • United States
  • New Zealand
  • Canada
  • Ireland
  • Liechtenstein
  • Germany
  • Sweden
Now, the US does score well, which is a testament to the basic underpinnings of our system. However, our score is also skewed artificially upward by the preponderance of extreme wealth in this country. Adjusted for that we'd probably be closer to #25 or so.

Note that the three countries above us, and indeed all of the remaining top ten, are "socialist" countries as conservatives would understand the term. In fact, aside from us, the top 29 nations are socialist. It's not until you get to the United Arab Emirates, a monarchy, that the chain is broken. You have to go all the way down to #45, Argentina, before you get to a republican (small "r") system like ours.

Bottom line: Socialism works. The evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.

Member Awards ()

#29 Redezra

Redezra

    ~>:BAMF:<~

  • Invicta: Knight
  • 7728 posts
  • Gender:Sentient artificial intelligence - identifies as female
  • Location::D
  • Ruler Name:Redezra
  • Nation Name:Jorostopia
  • IRC Nick:Redezra
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link


Posted 25 June 2012 - 08:26 PM

Woo! 'Straya!

#30 PrinceVegeta

PrinceVegeta

    Prince of all Saiyans

  • Peer
  • 3156 posts
  • Gender:Mortal angel (fell in love with mortal woman)
  • Ruler Name:Ramelon
  • Nation Name:Jotunheim
  • IRC Nick:PrinceVegeta
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link



Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:04 PM

Socialism has won the day!

Member Awards ()

#31 Evil Rudekker

Evil Rudekker
  • Invicta: Knight
  • 703 posts
  • Location:Riverwest, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
  • Ruler Name:Rudekker
  • Nation Name:Riverwest
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link

Posted 26 June 2012 - 06:07 PM

Socialism isn't about winning, it's about doing what's best for yourself. Real socialists don't want to beat anyone, they want you their enemies to join them.

#32 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 26 June 2012 - 07:09 PM

Ehh, speak for yourself. I want to beat them. :star-wars:

Member Awards ()

#33 King Biscuit

King Biscuit

    Wanna see a dead body?

  • President Emeritus
  • 6393 posts
  • Gender:Conjoined Twin, Male
  • Location:3rd world country formerly known as Michigan
  • Ruler Name:King Biscuit
  • Nation Name:Ovencia
  • IRC Nick:KingBeard
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link




Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:20 PM

Posted Image



Member Awards ()

#34 Redezra

Redezra

    ~>:BAMF:<~

  • Invicta: Knight
  • 7728 posts
  • Gender:Sentient artificial intelligence - identifies as female
  • Location::D
  • Ruler Name:Redezra
  • Nation Name:Jorostopia
  • IRC Nick:Redezra
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link


Posted 27 June 2012 - 03:07 AM

Lololol

#35 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:49 AM

Redezra, do you know who those guys are? I wouldn't necessarily expect you to. I doubt most Americans would recognize Lachlan Macquarie.

Member Awards ()

#36 Evil Rudekker

Evil Rudekker
  • Invicta: Knight
  • 703 posts
  • Location:Riverwest, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
  • Ruler Name:Rudekker
  • Nation Name:Riverwest
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link

Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:42 AM

The Founding Fathers were not socialist. They distrusted democracy, owned slaves, and (like us today) didn't like to pay for their wars. Also, they liked wars.

#37 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:55 AM

I don't know if it's accurate to say they liked war. They were certainly willing to use it as a tool when necessary. But they lived in a very different time. Besides, not all socialists absolutely eschew war under all circumstances. I will tell you quite frankly that if the kind of system I'd like to see could be achieved through force of arms I'd be all for it. There are plenty of people I'd be happy to see lined up with their backs against the wall when the revolution comes.

It's not fair to apply modern standards to the late 18th century. The idea of socialism as we understand it today did not exist in the Founding Fathers' time. But I would argue that their stressing of equality and their belief that the levers of government should not be in the hands of titled nobility made them sort of proto-socialists. Granted, rule by landowning, rich, white males doesn't seem very progressive today, in 1776 it was, well, revolutionary. :)

Member Awards ()

#38 King Biscuit

King Biscuit

    Wanna see a dead body?

  • President Emeritus
  • 6393 posts
  • Gender:Conjoined Twin, Male
  • Location:3rd world country formerly known as Michigan
  • Ruler Name:King Biscuit
  • Nation Name:Ovencia
  • IRC Nick:KingBeard
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link




Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:40 AM

The term "socialism" wasn't coined until the 19th century.
Here lemme snag something from my boy T. Jeff:

"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone - without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1811

Sounds mighty social to me.

Member Awards ()

#39 The Dark Empire

The Dark Empire

    Lord James

  • Peer
  • 3082 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Ruler Name:Lord James
  • Nation Name:The Dark Empire
  • IRC Nick:TheDarkEmpire
  • Alliance Name:Regnum Invictorum
  • Nation Link




Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:35 AM

Many of these ideologies work fantastically on paper but are not good in real application (like communism). I like the idea if socialism a whole lit but I don't see the United States becoming socialist. Also going with thrash I agree that a lit of welfare money is wasted on people who waste their money but that's human nature.

Member Awards ()

#40 The Dark Empire

The Dark Empire

    Lord James

  • Peer
  • 3082 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Ruler Name:Lord James
  • Nation Name:The Dark Empire
  • IRC Nick:TheDarkEmpire
  • Alliance Name:Regnum Invictorum
  • Nation Link




Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:35 AM

Many of these ideologies work fantastically on paper but are not good in real application (like communism). I like the idea if socialism a whole lit but I don't see the United States becoming socialist. Also going with thrash I agree that a lit of welfare money is wasted on people who waste their money but that's human nature.

Member Awards ()


1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users