115 replies to this topic

[King Biscuit]

Thats taking it to the extreme, I still believe that we need a code of laws, but my point was that safety is fleeting but its hard to get freedoms back once you lose them

That reminds me of something my boy Franklin once said...

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

(yeah double post I was getting caught up)

[Dan2680]

Haha I agree with KB's above statement.

Also, I don't think guns should be outright banned... its just stupid to think average people need military grade weapons and munitions in their everyday lives. Shotguns and rifles (long barrel) are completely ok in my books, even semi-auto rifles with clips are fine (we have a few, ex. this high power .223 rifle, meant for sport/small game). Also, anything deemed a collectable is ok as well (in Canada you can own it, but you can't have ammo for it. My uncle owns a set of really old pistols, as an example).

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Plenty of countries have freedom without guns.

[Edward Reed]

Thats taking it to the extreme, I still believe that we need a code of laws, but my point was that safety is fleeting but its hard to get freedoms back once you lose them

That reminds me of something my boy Franklin once said...

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

(yeah double post I was getting caught up)

I thought the same thing posted a variant of that quotation on page 1

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

The whole America-as-the-land-of-the-free trope is complete bullshit. Many countries have the same political freedoms we do, in many cases more clearly defined.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't feel particularly "free." Sure, I can vote for whomever I please, but unless it's for one of the two major parties I'm wasting my time. Freedom to live where I like? Work where I like? Sure, in theory. But like many people economic factors keep me effectively trapped. I can't do the things I really want to do because I can't afford to. Instead I'm stuck. Some freedom. Freedom to work twenty-five more years then retire and live as a pauper? Wow. Great.

True freedom is becoming harder and harder to achieve in the United States if you make less than six figures.

[The Dark Empire]

Yeah when I picture freedom I think of the West during the 1800's. Government was pretty much non-present and people built their own society. Sure it was a harder life but it was a true sense of freedom and independence. As Turner said in his frontier thesis, the West was the symbol of American independence and freedom.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I suppose. Ask the native tribes about that "nonexistent" government and you'd get a very different opinion.

Americans tend to way over-romanticize the Old West. The truth is that it was a difficult, hardscrabble existence rife with disease, intolerance, and an almost casual violence that we would find shocking today. I don't want to struggle that hard merely to survive. I'll take civilization, thanks.

[Edward Reed]

Yeah when I picture freedom I think of the West during the 1800's. Government was pretty much non-present and people built their own society. Sure it was a harder life but it was a true sense of freedom and independence. As Turner said in his frontier thesis, the West was the symbol of American independence and freedom.

I picture something similar, it might seem funny but I think of the firefly universe as almost total freedom.

[Thrash]

True freedom is becoming harder and harder to achieve in the United States if you make less than six figures.

This is true.

[Redezra]

Yeah when I picture freedom I think of the West during the 1800's. Government was pretty much non-present and people built their own society. Sure it was a harder life but it was a true sense of freedom and independence. As Turner said in his frontier thesis, the West was the symbol of American independence and freedom.

I picture something similar, it might seem funny but I think of the firefly universe as almost total freedom.

And as Jorost so nicely pointed out, this is a deluded, romanticised view. The truth is that pure freedom is god awful. In such an environment, there was no regulation, safety, or protection at all. It was a simple kill or be killed environment. And it was exceedingly inefficient. The quality of life of a controlled, properly governed society is signifigantly higher. Heck, the quality of life on average for the USA today is pretty crap. Yes there are some very wealthy, high life people, but they are overwhelmed by the sheer (increasing) number of people struggling on a day to day basis.

There are countries that have a better average quality of life. These happen to be ones with far greater government control, and less freedom. Interestingly enough, en masse, we are happier, and are not worried about the threats that others present. We aren't paranoid about the economy, etc.

The problem that you have to think of, and many of you don't, is what freedom will do. It means people who are simply better than you, will be able to own you, and there's not anything you can do about it. You don't usually think in that kind of strategic manner, you just assume that freedom is good. It is, for those naturally capable. High functioning psychopaths are generally capable. Very capable. Humans are not equal, and in an environment where certain things are not ensured, the predators will take control.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

In survival of the fittest, you better be the fittest.

[Thrash]

In survival of the fittest, you better be the fittest.

what are you doing awake at 3:42AM, you're old.

[Dan2680]

In survival of the fittest, you better be the fittest.

what are you doing awake at 3:42AM, you're old.

The older you get the less sleep you need, lol.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Adderall is a hell of a drug.

Besides, you're older than me, Thrash.

[The Dark Empire]

Yeah when I picture freedom I think of the West during the 1800's. Government was pretty much non-present and people built their own society. Sure it was a harder life but it was a true sense of freedom and independence. As Turner said in his frontier thesis, the West was the symbol of American independence and freedom.

I picture something similar, it might seem funny but I think of the firefly universe as almost total freedom.

And as Jorost so nicely pointed out, this is a deluded, romanticised view. The truth is that pure freedom is god awful. In such an environment, there was no regulation, safety, or protection at all. It was a simple kill or be killed environment. And it was exceedingly inefficient. The quality of life of a controlled, properly governed society is signifigantly higher. Heck, the quality of life on average for the USA today is pretty crap. Yes there are some very wealthy, high life people, but they are overwhelmed by the sheer (increasing) number of people struggling on a day to day basis.

There are countries that have a better average quality of life. These happen to be ones with far greater government control, and less freedom. Interestingly enough, en masse, we are happier, and are not worried about the threats that others present. We aren't paranoid about the economy, etc.

The problem that you have to think of, and many of you don't, is what freedom will do. It means people who are simply better than you, will be able to own you, and there's not anything you can do about it. You don't usually think in that kind of strategic manner, you just assume that freedom is good. It is, for those naturally capable. High functioning psychopaths are generally capable. Very capable. Humans are not equal, and in an environment where certain things are not ensured, the predators will take control.

I wouldn't say my viewpoint is highly romanticized. I never said that life in the west was easy and I specifically pointed out that it would be an incredibly hard life to live. But to me that is true freedom. The mountain men relied on themselves and they would only rendezvous when they wanted to sell their furs. These men had no one but themselves. Govt. Was not established enough to enforce any laws so people could do what they wanted. And by the way, there were no other people around so they could own as many bloody guns as they wanted. I picture the West the way it was. And I know I'm bot deluded because I've read several documents describing the topic fo thatr my AP USH class. Don't assume I'm thinking of cowboys and Indians. Freedom is freedom. If you have a hard life you are still free. You may even be more free and happy than some rich schmuck. Don't ever equate luxury with freedom because that is deluded. Even the man who has nothing can be free.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Ehh. What you describe as "freedom" sounds awful to me. I don't want to live like a mountain man.

[PrinceVegeta]

Freedom, in my opinion, is giving the citizens full control over the country.

To be free...That would cause a lot of chaos. The definition of Free is: Not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
Now at first, sure it sounds fun, everyone can do whatever the fuck they want whenever they want, however they want, with whatever they want, and with whomever they want to do it with, Etc.

But let's look at it from the smart persons point of view. Being free, includes the following: You are now able to take anything you want from anyone without any interference from an outside party(The Law) It's just you, and the other person. Taking things include: Life, credit for something, and any material object, and some other stuff.

That would cause some chaos. If America was truly a free country, it'd be the most dangerous country you'd try to live in. It would be Anarchy. Because there would be no government to make things go round. Everyone would be there own President over what they do.

So let's NOT be free. Let's have some order and some laws to keep people from running around doing whatever the hell they want.

And now it sorta sounds like I was contradicting what I said before in this thread, wherever that post may be. Anyways, I said in it, that Gun Laws wouldn't help. What I mean now is, the law itself wouldn't help, unless the punishment behind said law, was more intimidating. INTIMIDATE THE MASSES. No one fucks up.

So yeah, no freedom. I'd rather be under communist rule. At least I can walk the streets and not have to worry about a lunatic killing people, or in this case, I can go to the movies, and not have to worry about dying.

[The Dark Empire]

So yeah, no freedom. I'd rather be under communist rule. At least I can walk the streets and not have to worry about a lunatic killing people, or in this case, I can go to the movies, and not have to worry about dying.

Um...Russia? The people there didn't have to worry about people shooting people because the secret police did that.

[PrinceVegeta]

Russia is no longer communist. China however, is. And is also the strongest military power on the planet...other than whatever is in area-51.

[The Dark Empire]

No my point is the USSR killed its own people.