71 replies to this topic

[Manoka]

The US is mostly energy independent in North America (Can/Mex).  We only need to defend the Middle East for the benefit of Japan, and to a lesser amount Europe.  I favor reducing our involvement to those states that are totally cooperative with our interests.  The US is in no way the solution to the various conflicts in the Middle East as they predate my nation by 1000 years or more.

Of course. The solution has to come from within the middle east, for democracy and an emphasis on human rights.

 

Luckily, with the Arab spring and current push towards democracy, this seems to be the direction they're going. So with military assistance to beat Assad and a handful of other dictators it seems likely that, they can come out on top. 

 

Where diplomacy can be used, it will be used. When things have broken so far down past it that it's almost humorous to suggest it, than we'll move on to other options like, military solutions. 

Edited by Manoka, 06 November 2016 - 10:35 PM.

[voidoid]

 

Of course. The solution has to come from within the middle east, for democracy and an emphasis on human rights.

 

Luckily, with the Arab spring and current push towards democracy, this seems to be the direction they're going. So with military assistance to beat Assad and a handful of other dictators it seems likely that, they can come out on top. 

 

Where diplomacy can be used, it will be used. When things have broken so far down past it that it's almost humorous to suggest it, than we'll move on to other options like, military solutions. 

 

Uhhh. the Arab Spring was crushed as far as I know.  Might be somewhat effective in Tunisia but not anywhere east of there.

[Manoka]

 

 

Of course. The solution has to come from within the middle east, for democracy and an emphasis on human rights.

 

Luckily, with the Arab spring and current push towards democracy, this seems to be the direction they're going. So with military assistance to beat Assad and a handful of other dictators it seems likely that, they can come out on top. 

 

Where diplomacy can be used, it will be used. When things have broken so far down past it that it's almost humorous to suggest it, than we'll move on to other options like, military solutions. 

 

Uhhh. the Arab Spring was crushed as far as I know.  Might be somewhat effective in Tunisia but not anywhere east of there.

Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Kuwait and plenty of others have done fairly well and lead to more democratic governments. The only really problematic situation has been in Syria. Yemen has faced some violence to a lesser extent but, it's nowhere near the level of Syria.

[Thrash]

So if we nuke Israel, then they'll just turn on everyone else? xP

 

Sounds reasonable.

 

There's a much easier way then nuking them. Stop sending them billions in aid. Solves our terrorism problem. I'm tired of the oh they hate our freedom that's why the bomb us. That's bullshit. They hate that we send money to Israel which allows Israel to threaten THEIR way of life.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

US aid to Israel totals about $3 billion a year. US aid to the Muslim countries surrounding Israel (Egypt, Jordan, the West Bank/Gaza, Iraq, and Lebanon) totals $4.6 billion a year. Math ftw.

 

The unspoken US policy in the Middle East is to maintain a certain level of chaos. In fact this is basically our foreign policy everywhere: maintain chaos so that no other country gains too much power/hegemony, thus ensuring US dominance. We say we want to achieve peace in the Middle East, but we don't really mean it.

[King Biscuit]

So if we nuke Israel, then they'll just turn on everyone else? xP

 

Sounds reasonable.

 

There's a much easier way then nuking them. Stop sending them billions in aid. Solves our terrorism problem. I'm tired of the oh they hate our freedom that's why the bomb us. That's bullshit. They hate that we send money to Israel which allows Israel to threaten THEIR way of life.

 

One of the handful of points we agree on.

Stop supporting Zionism, and watch terror against US interests go down.

They won't go away, surely, but fall off they will.

[voidoid]

Religious conflict in the Middle East is very similar to racial conflict in my hometown, i.e. it is the raison d'etre for politicians' hold on office.  "I'm the only one who can protect you from those other people that you hate."  From their political post they can loot the public till and stash the cash in secure off-shore banks and London real estate.

 

There is no solution because the decision makers profit from the status quo.  No amount of bombing by the US Air Force and Navy will change that.  We should pull out and let the Russians bounce rocks.

[Manoka]

So if we nuke Israel, then they'll just turn on everyone else? xP

 

Sounds reasonable.

 

There's a much easier way then nuking them. Stop sending them billions in aid. Solves our terrorism problem. I'm tired of the oh they hate our freedom that's why the bomb us. That's bullshit. They hate that we send money to Israel which allows Israel to threaten THEIR way of life.

I don't even think ISIS really cares about Israel, nor does Al-Qeada, the Taliban or most terrorist groups. In fact the only group that cares, Hezbollah and various members of the PLO, have yet to wage a major offensive against the U.S.

 

So uh, no. That's not actually at all why terrorism exists; nonetheless there's two things to bear in mind in any case. That A- they'd hate us because we're different from them anyways, they kill other muslims that are slightly different from themselves oh and uh B- they already hate us for having supported them in the past, so it's not like stopping at random is going to make them, stop hating us. You don't hate a guy who murdered your mother less because he stopped murdering other people's mothers. And in their mind not being their kind of muslim is the worst thing in existence, so, that's not going away any time soon. Having helped them in the past makes us their enemies even if we choose to stop. 

 

They also threaten to destabilize the middle east even further which would, a problem for the world, and the U.S., irregardless of whether or not Israel survived. So if we stop helping Israel, it's not going to protect us, it just means we'd be abandoning an ally and millions of innocent people. Besides, what do you think Israel would do if they were scared and alone? Start launching nukes? You think that's better for the safety of the world? Whether we like it or not, we can't let Israel go down anymore than Russia or Pakistan. If the country falls apart it's the beginning of Armageddon. 

Edited by Manoka, 07 November 2016 - 01:21 PM.

[Manoka]

US aid to Israel totals about $3 billion a year. US aid to the Muslim countries surrounding Israel (Egypt, Jordan, the West Bank/Gaza, Iraq, and Lebanon) totals $4.6 billion a year. Math ftw.

 

The unspoken US policy in the Middle East is to maintain a certain level of chaos. In fact this is basically our foreign policy everywhere: maintain chaos so that no other country gains too much power/hegemony, thus ensuring US dominance. We say we want to achieve peace in the Middle East, but we don't really mean it.

So everyone in the middle east hates Israel? Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq all hate and want to destroy Israel?

 

Do you really believe that? Not all middle eastern countries are the same. Christ dude. 

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Countries don't hate, people do. For the record, I never said anything about those countries hating or wanting to destroy anyone. But having lived in the region, I can attest that, yes, anti-Israeli feeling does indeed run high among a significant portion of the population, at least based on my informal observations. Not as high as anti-Iranian feeling though. More than one Saudi I met would actually spit when mentioning Iran or Iranians. That was an eye-opener.

[Manoka]

Countries don't hate, people do. For the record, I never said anything about those countries hating or wanting to destroy anyone. But having lived in the region, I can attest that, yes, anti-Israeli feeling does indeed run high among a significant portion of the population, at least based on my informal observations. Not as high as anti-Iranian feeling though. More than one Saudi I met would actually spit when mentioning Iran or Iranians. That was an eye-opener.

So how does giving these particular countries money breed chaos in the middle east? O.o

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Lol. Do I really have to spell this out for you? When you back both sides of a regional rivalry, it tends to breed chaos in that region. This isn't rocket science, Manoka. Try to keep up.

[Manoka]

Lol. Do I really have to spell this out for you? When you back both sides of a regional rivalry, it tends to breed chaos in that region. This isn't rocket science, Manoka. Try to keep up.

But it's not both sides. That's my point. In fact you even admitted to that.

 

These people aren't majorly anti-Israel, or funding war against Israel. So your entire argument is then invalid? O.o

 

If you give these governments money it doesn't work against Israel so, no, it's not the other side. 

Edited by Manoka, 07 November 2016 - 02:41 PM.

[Redezra]

No but the US sure as hell promotes conflict between Israel and it's neighbor states, and internal conflict within those states.

[Chax]

We're sure as shit not supporting the Syrian opposition with any intention of them ever winning. 

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Lol. Do I really have to spell this out for you? When you back both sides of a regional rivalry, it tends to breed chaos in that region. This isn't rocket science, Manoka. Try to keep up.

But it's not both sides. That's my point. In fact you even admitted to that.

 

These people aren't majorly anti-Israel, or funding war against Israel. So your entire argument is then invalid? O.o

 

If you give these governments money it doesn't work against Israel so, no, it's not the other side. 

 

Lol. If you think the money the US gives Egypt, Jordan, Gaza, et al doesn't go to work against Israel then I have a lovely bridge to sell you...

[Manoka]

No but the US sure as hell promotes conflict between Israel and it's neighbor states, and internal conflict within those states.

Based on what?

[Manoka]

 

Lol. Do I really have to spell this out for you? When you back both sides of a regional rivalry, it tends to breed chaos in that region. This isn't rocket science, Manoka. Try to keep up.

But it's not both sides. That's my point. In fact you even admitted to that.

 

These people aren't majorly anti-Israel, or funding war against Israel. So your entire argument is then invalid? O.o

 

If you give these governments money it doesn't work against Israel so, no, it's not the other side. 

 

Lol. If you think the money the US gives Egypt, Jordan, Gaza, et al doesn't go to work against Israel then I have a lovely bridge to sell you...

So now your argument has flip flopped for the second time and sending money to Egypt, Jordan and even Gaza (of which sending humanitarian aid to people is not the same as arming them) somehow works against Israel. 

 

Okay, how? Cause the last I checked not everyone, or even the majority of people there or in the government are working against Israel. 

Edited by Manoka, 08 November 2016 - 01:00 PM.

[Manoka]

We're sure as shit not supporting the Syrian opposition with any intention of them ever winning. 

I think we want them to win, but Russia has made things more complicated by threatening nuclear war every two seconds. 

[Redezra]

No but the US sure as hell promotes conflict between Israel and it's neighbor states, and internal conflict within those states.

Based on what?

 

Me being knowlegeable and you being an ignorant twat?