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Marine MEU vs. Roman Legion


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#1 Manoka

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 10:29 PM

Marine MEU vs. Roman Legion
So, a thought on my mind that has been brought up is that, who would win in a fight; the Marine Expeditionary Unit or, the Roman legion? While it's difficult to exactly ascertain the exact figures, for these purposes I'm assuming 2,200 marines vs. about 100,000 or so Romans. If you need a backstory, marines have troubled back in time to try and give advanced technology to the Romans and take over their society so they can eventually build a new society and hopefully in the future prevent the oncoming disaster that will inevitability result from Trump being elected. It's humanities last hope! So, an MEU time travels and decides to take on the Roman Legion. Who would win?
 
At first this might seem random; why an MEU? What is an MEU? Are you on drugs? To answer all but the last question, a Marine Expeditionary Unit is a unit within the marines designed to be perfectly self sustainable. It's the smallest unit that can take care of itself; with it's own air fleet, tank crew, soldiers, special forces, logistics organization and command it can basically operate anywhere in the world on it's own initiative and serve as a small mini-army. In the case of Grenada, 10,000 marines were deployed to overtake the Island, which were similar to an MEU; when you need a small army to be deployed in a second's notice, these are the guys to call. They don't just fight conventional battles, they're capable of irregular and strange warfare, and operating completely by themselves without logistics supplies. They have their own water purification systems, trench diggers, the ability to establish military bases, hunt for food and even to an extent, produce ethanol and biofuels from nature. They are designed to remain almost indefinitely in the field, and have many years worth of supplies stocked up. These members are career soldiers and while they are not all among "elite" forces (I.E. special forces), they are far above average in terms of skill and ability. They expect to be on ships for months at a time or overseas for large sections of their career, making them psychologically prepared for a long stay away from home (in this case, for the rest of their lives). 
 
The Roman legion on the other hand is perhaps the second best military of the time (after the Monghols). Their empire is the second largest in the world, and they have mastered the art of the "machine of war", able to systematically produce very consistent weapons and armor across their troops, trebuchets and catapults, and other such goods. They have involvement in Egypt with collections of some of the most valuable works of the ancient world, control the major supply trade networks of the day connecting the middle east, Africa and Asia with Europe (I.E. otherwise known as the Byzantine empire), and even things like paved roads across most of their empire, gigantic buildings and waterworks such as aqueducts which, like today, transport water across the empire. Many of these structures are still standing today, giving you an idea of their quality. They have copious amounts of food and water, tremendous amounts of wealth and even a semi-democratic system. For the time, they were nearly unmatched with the scope in which their technology and wealth was spread out among the average citizen, and their military was incredibly capable, as a result. At its peak, after the Antonine Plague of the 160s CE, it had a population of about 60 million and a population density of about 16 persons per square kilometer. In contrast to the European societies of the classical and medieval periods, Rome had unusually high urbanization rates. During the 2nd century CE, the city of Rome had more than one million inhabitants. No Western city would have as many again until the 19th century. Their military was 99% economy, having the best logistics in existence, and preferring long sieges where their men simply out lasted their enemies in long wars of attrition. There is a saying "all roads lead to Rome", as the Romans were able to cart goods across their empire and all the way up to the front lines with ease, remaining in combat indefinitely, without the romans having to carry their own food and water. For every Roman soldier there were likely 4 or more support troops behind them, giving them the ability to maintain their forces. The Roman legions were considered impregnable and invincible, as for as often as they lost men, they replaced them, recruiting them from the empire. They were seen an unstoppable force, moving like a glacier to consume everything around them.
 
The marines have the advantage of modern technology and knowledge. Not only do they have better weapons individually, and armor and other equipment, but also better knowledge. They've studied the Romans and the Battle of Cannae(the defeat of one of their largest armies), and thus know their strengths and weaknesses inside and out. They've also studied the Mongol Empire and other wars throughout history, giving them extensive knowledge of military tactics and strategies. Military colleges have built on these theories and have even more recent examples of tactics and strategies, such as WWII, Korea and the recent wars in the middle east, giving them far more complex knowledge. They fight a fast paced, almost Guerrilla style warfare, in urban environments which demand speed and agility. They're used to enemies that can kill them in a single hit, and have an emphasis on getting the first shot, since modern body armor will not stop rifle rounds and is aimed at stopping shrapnel. Comparatively, the Romans were much smaller and deliberate, with armor that took several hits to get through or at least a single direct hit rather than being so easily exposed and killed. They fought in tight defensive formations where as marines spread out, and marines also possess things like helicopters which can provide areal reconnaissance, night vision to fight the enemy when they're practically blind, the ability to rain fire and death from the skies, and even modern firearms, which far outrange and easily would pierce the armor of the Roman's. 
 
The obvious advantage of the Romans is size and scope; they not only have more numbers than the marines, at 100,000 men compared to 2,000, but things like trebuchets and catapults which can large projectiles hundreds of yards. A 1 ton rock falling from the sky could presumably destroy a tank and decimate defense. They also had ballista and other such weaponry, allowing them to pepper the enemy with massive spear-like arrows raining down from the sky, which could legitimately pose a threat to modern marines. In addition ,they lived off the land, and possess the logistics to continue their operations. For the marines, it's a lot like a ticking clock; every action has a certain cost, from clearing wooded areas to digging trenches. There's a limit to their gasoline and resources, to their bullets and other supplies, and thus everything they expend is a lot like sinking further on a ship taking on water. If they have only 50,000 gallons of gasoline and they expend 5,000 of it digging trenches, there is a permanent loss to their supply even though we think of gasoline as being something we can refuel. There's a sinking ship, and when time runs out it will fall apart. The only question is will they achieve their goals by then? For all of our sake and humanities, we hope that the marine's win! So, who would win?
 
 
The Marine Expeditionary Unit
As stated before, the MEU was chosen for a reason. They are the smallest unit capable of functioning out in the field and being completely self sustainable, with their own aircraft, tanks, special forces, reconnaissance units and so on. They also have Marines possesses the advantage not only in raw firepower and technological innovation, but also in terms of strategy. 2000+ years of warfare to build on, on top of modern understanding of science and they can easily combat their enemies. They've not only studied battles such as those by Hannibal, Genghis Khan, Alexander the great, and other militaries, but those in more recent conflicts as well, such as WWII and the Iraq wars. They know what the stars are, that bacteria is not little gremlins crawling on their skins, are nowhere near as superstitious and uneducated as the Romans. For a morale factor, Romans attacked by the marines would be "awed" by their weaponry, and possibly believe it was the end times with hellfire literally raining down on them for the skies. While the Romans might in theory be able to outlast the marines, the fact of the matter is they wouldn't know if the marines would run out of their death machines or not. It's possible that they would surrender immediately after such a show of force and obey the marine's commands. With the marine "Shock and Awe" strategy already in use today, it would only be exemplified by the culture and technological shock the Romans would be experiencing. At the very least, many swaths of romans would throw down their arms and desert their forces as they see taking them on as a lost cause, and many more would only be lightly committed to combat.
 
Areal reconnaissance allows the marines to see what their enemies are doing from a birds eyes view. Reconnaissance in the old days not only took time, reports from second-hand accounts (I.E. someone seeing something and then describing it to you), but potentially lives. Scouts got killed, and scouts that never returned didn't give you information at all. They could only gather what they could see from a distance, and from a normal person's point of view. There's nothing quite like a birds-eye view when planning an attack on enemy forces. Knowing where they're coming from, when, how many men they have and so on is a great way to be able to strategize and attack the enemy at the opportune moments; real time scouting allows you to capitalize on opportunities when they arise, rather than needing to wait several days. Night vision allows them to see at night and be able to attack the enemy with ease, while things like radios allow for instant communication of amazing details, which Romans would lack. Their ability to fight not only extends to raw firepower, but sheer knowledge of what's going on, which in and of itself is generally speaking the key determining factor to who wins a war. 
 
Despite the Superior Roman logistics, marines still possess a numbers of advantages. The typical MEU complement possesses 2,200 troops, nearly all of them trained how to fight like infantry, with a permanent ground force element of approximately 1,100 soldiers. They have 4    M1A1 main battle tanks, 30    Light Armored Vehicles, 63 Humvees, 6 155mm howitzers, 8 M252 81mm mortars, 6    attack helicopters, 6 attack aircraft, and 18 utility aircraft. In terms of logistics, they have 3 water purification systems, including the LMT 3000. They have 30 medium trucks, 4 tractors, 3 bulldozers, 4 general logistics vehicles and 7, 500 gallon water containers. The average marine consumes approximately 5.4 gallons of water day, for bathing, cleaning, and cooking, meaning the entire MEU consumes approximately 12,000 gallons per day. The Tactical Water Purification Systems can be carried on a Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement truck, and can filter 1,200 to 1,500 US gallons (4,500 to 5,700 l) per hour. 8 hours of usage per day from a single unit is more than sufficient to produce the water needs required by the entire marine force. Although this consumes gasoline, the amount is small enough to be sustainable for many years. Marines are also experimenting with biofuels, that could be made from the natural environment. While this would only provide ideally up to 10% of what they need to maintain combat operations, it would be more than enough to maintain basic logistics. Until the generators, filters and so on broke, which are made to last for dozens of years, they could survive nearly indefinitely if they could receive water, food, and even fuel from the environment.  With the other logistics vehicles, they could dig trenches, build walls, and fill sand bags. While this may seem insignificant, one sand bag can stop a bullet, and back in those days without things like aircraft and the like, they would be forced to pursue the marines on foot, and inevitably have to scale walls and trenches, which could be filled with spikes and other booby traps, in order to get to the marines. They could build these defenses rather quickly, and would provide a fairly significant advantage against mostly Roman infantry, allowing the marines to force the Roman forces to maintain a great distance between them, which would enhance the effectiveness of their ranged firearms even more.
 
Marines not only have the advantage in terms of raw firepower, but also in knowledge, science and strategic capabilities, as well. Little can replace the sheer advantage of having areal Reconnaissance or long ranged telescopes, and with Rome's all but completely inept anti-air abilities, they are completely defenseless against aircraft. In terms of firepower, they have machine guns, tanks, artillery, and even Areal bombardment, but all of this only lasts in the short term. Unless the marines can defeat and nearly annihilate the Romans in a number of key battles, they stand a poor chance of winning after they exhaust their limited combat resources. 
 
 
 
 
 
The Roman War Machine
While the Roman war machine carried a great scope and range, expanding an empire that ranged between Spain and Turkey, incorporating Egypt, much of the middle east, Northern Africa, and most of Europe, including France, Italy and Britain. Their abundant natural resources, trade with the east and military power gave them incredible capabilities, and a nearly unparalleled reach. There's a saying "All Roads lead to rome", as Rome was known for building so many roads that, it was likely you would eventually get to Rome on one. From running water to transportation, Rome would possess capabilities and a population size not seen by Europe until the 1900's. The Roman Machine was able to maintain it's presence almost entirely through logistics, a strategy affectionately referred to as "99% economy, 1% military". They could not only march long distances and build siege engines, large walls and other structures, but they could maintain their operations nearly indefinitely due to their logistics and supply. For every soldier they lost they could replace them with ease, possessing both the money, general resources and the endurance for so few of their men to be lost. This gave the impression that the Roman legion was invincible and immutable, and would inevitably like a Glacier slowly inch across the world, until it had consumed everything. Every man was given their salt, and water, and elaborate water works, sewage systems and bath houses were built which dramatically increased the longevity of the Romans. Romans by and large felt special in the ancient world, as if they had things the rest of the world did not, and in general they were treated as such even by their most corrupt governments. 
 
The Romans were insistent on every soldier reaching a certain minimum, in terms of equipment and training. Every single Roman soldier had to have a sword, an axe (fascis), a dagger, a spear, several javelines and a full suit of segmented plate armor. Compared to mideval armies, it was rare for the average soldier to have more than a gambeson or spear, let alone a sword. The axe, perhaps the most iconic weapon in the Roman eyes, severd as a pick, an axe and a hammer, and doubled as a tool for utility as much as a weapon of war. In the battle of Alesia, the Romans surrounded their enemies in just 3 weeks with 26 miles of defenses, and after facing attacks from the outside, surrounded themselves once again with defenses to stop the invaders. In just a matter of weeks they had built formidable defensive structures and siege weapons like the ballista, all by the skill of the soldiers, engineers, and of course the axe. The term "Fascist" and "Faggot" comes from this word, as the weapon was a representation for the Roman empire, and not only it's ability to fight, but for it's ability to build infrastructure, and build siege engines from nothing more than local wood and a handful of nails. 
 
Romans could essentially travel anywhere, and from local wood and materials, build massive siege engines capable of taking entire cities. From ballista to trebuchets to catapults, the Romans could create massive war machines which could take out dozens of men at a time, nearly anywhere in the world. While the soldier himself was often little more than infantry, Roman ingenuity and skill allowed them to far exceed this limitation given enough time. Every Roman soldier was as much a worker to mine for metal wore, construct fortifications, build weapons and perform other such tasks as they were an outright warrior. The Roman way of war was to surround and squeeze their enemy, cutting them off from all outside resources, relentlessly attacking them, never letting go and beating down their enemy until they ran out of food and water, and other supplies and eventually died from a long war of attrition, or were forced to face the full might of the Romans in a single battle. Many conflicts were often settled without a single battle, as the Roman war machines presence alone could simply be enough to deter attackers from resisting. The Romans were unstoppable, incredible and immutable until, they eventually fell in the late 5th century. With the marines lack of logistics, against perhaps the most well funded and backed military of the ancient world, it would be a matter of pitting their best strategies against each other.




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#2 Manoka

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 10:29 PM

Marines Best chance of survival
Because of the obvious problems of surviving on your own and maintaining the advanced technology, we're assuming this is an uphill battle for the marines. They not only need to survive, but defeat the leaders of the Romans and take over their empire, which would be relatively difficult to do. With their lack of logistics, numbers and general infrastructure, we're assuming the marines would lose otherwise. If 2,000 normal, unarmed people were sent back to fight the Romans, they'd likely lose, as the roman legion still has things like body armor and swords. You'd problably die pretty quickly without a number of advantages. The obvious win goes to the Romans, unless the Marines can find a way to win using superior technology and strategy. So, what's their best bet?
 
Since the marines have tons of logistics equipment and it's a ticking clock until they run out of resources, if they could build up their defenses, then draw the Romans out and get the Romans to attack them, they could defeat their forces. Attacking the Romans directly would be a difficult victory; even with superior weapons, if the Romans could close the ranged distance between themselves and the marines, they could get within range to use their weapons, and thus the marines could be defeated. If overwhelmed before all the Romans surrender or die, the Romans by sheer numbers alone (50+ times the marines) could simply surround them and hack them to death. If the marines run out of ammunition or other such necessities, they too could die rather quickly. 
 
What should also not be discounted are Rome's siege engines. While perhaps not as powerful as aircraft or artillery today, a 2,000 pound boulder coming down on you from the sky or dozens of darts or lead shot from a trebuchet could be just as deadly under ideal circumstances. They could crush barriers and defeat the advanced of defenses, giving an opening for Romans troops to go through. While soldiers wear body armor that likely could stop most swords and knives, a giant rock simply crushing you would take you out one way or the other. Furthermore, kevlar in general is more susceptible to knives and cutting or stabbing than to bullets, giving them a potential advantage in attacks, especially in regards to spears. Bows and arrows and javelines might actually pierce their armor at close range, or at least get stuck in and eventually ruin the armor. Volley after volley of spears and arrows could be devastating, and considering that ballista fired out of giant crossbows or catapults and the like could easily pierce the armor, unless they are underneath cover they could be defeated rather easily by this equipment. The marines ideally would bomb these targets from above with their aircraft, or even artillery, hopefully destroying them before they become a major problem. With their limited numbers they couldn't simply bomb all the roman troops, but key targets such as siege engines would be more easy. Especially with an A-10 warthog strafing run, or an Apache helicopter. 
 
If the marines tried to attack the Romans head on in an aggressive assault, the initial mobility of their equipment combined with the effectiveness of their weapons individually would mean they would have a number of limited successes initially. However, as they ran out of resources they could be quickly overwhelmed by the Romans. In an assault, marines can only carry so much equipment; the average soldier can't carry with them the biggest guns available, and only typically carry about 300 rounds at any given point in time, which can be exhausted rather quickly, especially in rapid fire. In theory, if a soldier fired as fast as they could, they could be out of ammunition in a minute. While it's conceivable that an entire unit could carry 10's of thousands of rounds, far more than is needed with them on say, a large ship or vehicle, they couldn't carry this on foot. Vehicles such as an MRAP or HumVEE would still have a limited amount of ammunition, and would consume large amounts of gasoline. While it doesn't take much to run generators or logistics vehicles, a full on assault would burn through the limited amount of gasoline and fuel quickly. An M1 abrams tank for instance consumes 2 gallons per mile, and other equipment would consume just as much. To sustain operations in the field, marines would need to consume vast amounts of gasoline, not only to move the vehicles but also for their air conditioning and other electrical requirements. While the marines would inevitably be forced to go on the offensive in order to ultimately defeat the Romans can overtake the capital city, they could stay on the defensive, being very resource efficient, waging a long war of attrition against Rome, until they could finally overtake the Romans. 
 
Marines would need to go on land quickly, as well. Much larger siege engines can be transported by boat, and the ability to transport incredibly powerful equipment by the ocean would be far easier given the relative ease of transportation in water, as compared to land. Further, as marines, their ability to fight is more continent on land power than the ocean, and the MEU fleet is almost entirely dominated by cargo equipment. So, if the marines can disembark quickly, build up their defenses, draw out the Romans and then engage them in a scenario that favors the marines technological advantages, then the Marines could in theory win. After wearing out and defeating the Bulk of the Roman's forces, they could then storm the city and face little resistance after their forces were already defeated (draw out the enemy, then defeat them on favorable ground instead of laying siege to their cities. Classic story). This plan fails of course if the Roman's catch on to their strategy, the shock wears off of new technology, or they simply don't respond the way the marines want. As they are inevitably tied in by time, it becomes a matter of succeeding before the clock runs out. It's possible they can build their defenses and man the equipment without running out of resources per say, but they would run out of the ability to use the big guns, such as aircraft, and be entirely reliant on non-electrical or gasoline powered equipment, which largely leaves infantry. While they'd have firearms and the ammunition could last for ages, they'd be forced to hunt or use agriculture to survive and with these concerns on a daily basis, likely be dealing with too many problems and be unable to wage a formidable assault. They may survive without being defeated, but they would not manage to conquer the Romans.
 
All in all, they seem to have a pretty good chance of victory. Rome's biggest blunders, such as the defeat by Hannibal at Cannae, were due to their forces being drawn out and defeated in unfavorable ground, and thus it's a mistake they could repeat again. On the other side, they may have already learned from this and be unwilling to repeat it or, simply might not go through with it. The marine's plan would ultimately have to hinge on somehow bating the Romans to attack them in their defenses. As the Romans were experts at siege warfare and proffered sieges, this may not be nearly as hard to convince the Romans to do as you might think. However, it still all depends on their response and the marine's ability to capitalize on this and nearly wipe out the Romans in this pivotal battle. If the marines lose only but a few battles, they'd likely run low on resources and thus, not keep enough to sustain operations. The Marines need a few big wins (which is possible, given the ability for a machine gun or plane to wipe out dozens of romans), while the Romans could win the war of attrition, which is how they largely fought war in any case.
 
 
Basic Mechanics
So, to answer a few outstanding questions. Roman armor would likely not be able to stop modern day rifles, especially not the 5.56mm. A high velocity, high energy bullet would pass straight through most of their equipment, including their body armor and shields. Not only would most rifles do this but, the 5.56mm in particular was designed to pierce armor as effectively as possible. As it can pass through most modern kevlar armor, it's fairly unlikely that the roman armor would stand much of a chance against it. Their armor would likely however protect against shrapnel and some shock effect very effectively, and covering most of the sensitive areas of their body (head, lungs, heart, etc.) it could actually likely dampen the effect of explosives, like grenades, to some degree. A piece of shrapnel that could kill up to 200 yards away likely wouldn't past 15 yards, limiting the effective range of their explosives. These weapons would likely be terrifying and alien to the Romans, and many might surrender, however Romans had faced elephants, Egyptians and all manner of war machines in their travels, conditioning them to the unknown and strange. Furthermore, Romans often adopted their enemy's weapons and tactics, such as Hannibal being defeated by Scipio Africanus in much the same way as Hannibal had defeated the Romans or, their use of the Spanish Gladius as their main weapon and adoption of such a wide variety of weapons. 
 
The Roman's greatest strategy was also their greatest weakness; their over reliance on logistics made their tactics and individual combat ability somewhat limited, as the Romans were not known for complex guerrilla warfare but straightforward sieges with rigid square "boxes" of Roman men attacking the enemy in head-on battles. Their discipline was ultimately their weakness, as they were useless when cut off from supplies or exposed to unfamiliar situations, and if exploited could be done so to devastating effect. An example of this would be Hannibal in the Battle of Cannea who, with a force nearly half the size, all but annihilated the 70,000+ roman soldiers, with only 3,000 remaining Romans captured, in a total defeat. The Romans were very tactically flexible in their approach using spears and siege engines to lay down covering fire while the front lines would charge the enemy, like shock troops, to disrupt their forces. Like a well oiled machine, if just a handful of cogs were out of place the entire machine collapsed, and the Romans could be soundly defeated.
 
Bladed weapons have surprisingly high effectiveness against soft armor such as kevlar. Police tend ot be more worried about bows and arrows and crossbows, or large knives than they do against guns, as these weapons can more easily pierce the armor. While this would still be difficult, if they could surround and overwhelm the marines they would likely win the fight quite easily as, the romans could pierce their armor with a direct hit and still kill the marines. Large boulders, arrows and even swords are no less deadly than they were 1,000 years ago, and the reason being that human biology is still relatively the same. Large siege weapons can be comparable to explosives to some extent, and with numbers they could possibly break through enemy defenses. The marine's best defense would be a series of long ditches, as no matter how much you destroyed them, they would be nearly as difficult to cross. With the Romans storming the defenses, they would inevitably slowed down at a distance they simply couldn't engage the marines, while the marines could engage them with their longer ranged weapons and pick them off before they became a threat. Strategies like this would inherently rely upon the defensive advantage, setting or finding an idea place for warfare and luring the Romans out to attack them. The entire marine strategy would have to rest on a single gamble; lure the bulk of the Roman army out in a number of key battles in favorable ground and defeat them there. In a full on assault, the marines would do well but run out of resources quickly. If they could fight from a defensive position, such as their own military base, they could use their advantages of superior firepower, range and reach to potentially devastate the Romans, but only if the Romans would go to this ideally set up scenario in the first place. While the Romans have been tricked in to deploying their forces in to precarious scenarios before, it nonetheless would be a relatively difficult situation to pull off.


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Posted 07 September 2016 - 04:09 PM

TL;DR. But Marines have machine guns and armored vehicles. Roman Legions have swords and chariots. Really no contest.



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