58 replies to this topic

[Phate]

Pompous title aside, Learz, are you familiar with copyright law/cases at all? I've just been curious as to whether anyone has been or could be prosecuted for the act of downloading with no uploading. As far as I've seen, cases have focused on the damages caused by the P2P user uploading the file at the same time as downloading. However, I'm a terrible peer/leecher and I only download with my torrent client set to prevent uploading at all. Say I was taken to court for downloading a file (I'm not, this is purely hypothetical as I've been pondering it for a while), the prosecution would be unable to prove I was uploading anything, because they would never have been able to get that connection. Would the defendant be able to claim that because there was no upload taking place, and they were therefore not enabling anyone else to retrieve the file, that damages are limited to the cost of the movie? This would be akin to someone googling for the movie, finding a link on a website and downloading it via http in a browser. Or any other thoughts on the matter you may have would be welcome. And I'm not looking for solid law or fact, just conjecture and hypothesis based upon your far more extensive experience in the field.

(This is a topic in case it interests anyone else)

[the rebel]

People have been prosecuted in the past in the UK for just downloading music and films.

If you're a hardcore downloader it gets noticed.

[Locke]

It does happen. These days I think they focus more on uploaders because "granny sued for $50 million dollars over downloading a Britney Spears album" doesn't make good press, but I wouldn't say you're in the clear if you avoid uploading.

Also, seeding or not seeding doesn't matter so much, they're after the sources. Someone who maintains a 0.5 or a 1 or even a 2 ratio isn't as dangerous as the guy who puts up dozens of albums and seeds them to the world to start them off.

[Redezra]

Sometimes you don't need to outrun the bear. Sometimes you just need to run faster than the other guy.

[Learz]

It's complicated.

Short version: yes, you could be liable, even if you don't upload.

 

Slightly longer version: Copyright is part of property law. As a result, there isn't a "copyright", there are "copyrights". There can be anywhere between 1 and 10+ copyrights involved in any kind of work, depending on what it is. Why they go after uploaders is that by uploading you are infringing more rights, and it's easier to prove (which generally means higher damages gotten faster).  By just downloading, you're infringing at least the reproduction right, possibly derivative rights, and there's potential DMCA and anti-circumvention rights that could be involved.

 

So, by just downloading, you are limiting your liability, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. Infringement is infringement. Granted, they'll be more likely to settle with you (probably for less than a guy who's uploading), but you're still going to pay. As for damages specifically, again, infringement is infringement. It doesn't matter if you're infringing one copyright of a work, or 10 copyrights, if you're infringing you're infringing, and you will pay damages on that work. Which, if it's a registered work, can range between $200 and $150K. Ish.

 

This is not legal advice, and should not be used in determining what you should do

[the rebel]

I remember the days when piracy was rampant and no one had a clue you was doing it....VCR!

[Phate]

It's complicated.
Short version: yes, you could be liable, even if you don't upload.
 
Slightly longer version: Copyright is part of property law. As a result, there isn't a "copyright", there are "copyrights". There can be anywhere between 1 and 10+ copyrights involved in any kind of work, depending on what it is. Why they go after uploaders is that by uploading you are infringing more rights, and it's easier to prove (which generally means higher damages gotten faster).  By just downloading, you're infringing at least the reproduction right, possibly derivative rights, and there's potential DMCA and anti-circumvention rights that could be involved.
 
So, by just downloading, you are limiting your liability, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. Infringement is infringement. Granted, they'll be more likely to settle with you (probably for less than a guy who's uploading), but you're still going to pay. As for damages specifically, again, infringement is infringement. It doesn't matter if you're infringing one copyright of a work, or 10 copyrights, if you're infringing you're infringing, and you will pay damages on that work. Which, if it's a registered work, can range between $200 and $150K. Ish.
 
This is not legal advice, and should not be used in determining what you should do

Thanks. And it wasn't to make a decision as to what to do, just out of curiosity

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

When VCRs first came out all of these issues reared their head.  The final solution, iirc, had something to do with recorded video being used only for private purposes.  In other words, you couldn't tape a movie off HBO and then charge people to come watch it.  But of course there was no internet then, and the problem, if there ever was one, turned out to be small enough that the media companies could simply ignore it.

 

They can't do that any more.  Their business model is threatened in a way that it never ways in the heyday of videocassettes.  I think they're fighting a losing battle, but I have found that mass media corporations rarely take my advice, though I offer it freely.  Maybe that's the problem.  Maybe I should charge them a $500,000 consulting fee and then tell them they're acting like cunts.

[the rebel]

When VCRs first came out all of these issues reared their head.  The final solution, iirc, had something to do with recorded video being used only for private purposes.  In other words, you couldn't tape a movie off HBO and then charge people to come watch it.  But of course there was no internet then, and the problem, if there ever was one, turned out to be small enough that the media companies could simply ignore it.

 

They can't do that any more.  Their business model is threatened in a way that it never ways in the heyday of videocassettes.  I think they're fighting a losing battle, but I have found that mass media corporations rarely take my advice, though I offer it freely.  Maybe that's the problem.  Maybe I should charge them a $500,000 consulting fee and then tell them they're acting like cunts.

 

Well here in Europe not sure if its the same acroos the pond... But torrent sites / P2P.. even torrent links are being blocked by ISP due to court orders.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

They'll find a way around it.  You can't stop technology.  But no, here it's still pretty open.  I download Game of Thrones from Pirate Bay without any trouble.  I wonder how it is in 'Stralia and elsewhere?

 

Red?

[Rogal Dorn]

They'll find a way around it.  You can't stop technology.  But no, here it's still pretty open.  I download Game of Thrones from Pirate Bay without any trouble. 

 

yuppers. some nights the seeders/leechers gets insanely high from those episodes. and it's been pretty well covered that GoT is one of the most pirated tv shows ever. i think HBO fucks themselves over by only allowing it to stream on HBOGO which is tied to your cable service and its not like netflix and shit where it's just 9 bucks a month or w/e. so it's not easily viewable for a reasonable price on the interwebs.

[Haflinger]

It's tricky.

 

Here's the simple answer:

 

If you download a copy and store the file on your hard drive, you can be prosecuted. The act of saving the file counts as making a copy in most Berne countries, including the US, so you're sunk. This would obviously include all torrented files.

 

However the tricky part comes in if you don't save it. If you merely stream it, you open up a can of worms that as far as I know there's still no precedent for.

[*Anastasia]

They'll find a way around it.  You can't stop technology.  But no, here it's still pretty open.  I download Game of Thrones from Pirate Bay without any trouble.  I wonder how it is in 'Stralia and elsewhere?
 
Red?

Can't really speak for Australia, though I can say that in your specific example, at least, Australia is still at the top.

Canada does not presently have the same issue of copyright trolls, companies and law firms that sue or threaten to sue people over infringement of copyrights that they may or may not even hold the rights to, that the US sees. At least not yet. Recent "privacy" legislation looks set to open the door to this system of private quasi-prosecutions in Canada, though we still have some hope. Torrent sites are still widely available, however, and to the best of my knowledge there've not been any significant attempts to block public access to torrent or other P2P sites, and I don't foresee that there will be in the near future.

[Learz]

It's tricky.

 

Here's the simple answer:

 

If you download a copy and store the file on your hard drive, you can be prosecuted. The act of saving the file counts as making a copy in most Berne countries, including the US, so you're sunk. This would obviously include all torrented files.

 

However the tricky part comes in if you don't save it. If you merely stream it, you open up a can of worms that as far as I know there's still no precedent for.

 

Streaming can create a temporary copy on your comp, which can generate liability if it's found on your computer.

However, pure streaming is legal, at least so far

 

Make sure you delete your temporary internet files!

[Redezra]

In answer to Jorost:

 

"You can't stop the signal" is probably the best way of putting it.

 

Most people in Australia pirate with impunity. More importantly, most people are open about what they pirate, which I can't understand. It's like if everyone was openly talking about drug deals. No shady back alleys, noooo, just right out in the food court, or out the front of David Jones.... anyway, point is, piracy is super rampant here, specifically with TV. And it's all cable corporations' fault by trying to force the public into expensive contracts when a cheap and simple solution is always available.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

yuppers. some nights the seeders/leechers gets insanely high from those episodes. and it's been pretty well covered that GoT is one of the most pirated tv shows ever. i think HBO fucks themselves over by only allowing it to stream on HBOGO which is tied to your cable service and its not like netflix and shit where it's just 9 bucks a month or w/e. so it's not easily viewable for a reasonable price on the interwebs.

 

HBO has made it very clear that they don't care if people pirate GoT.  Their position is basically that it still benefits them to get more people watching it.  I have been wondering if this position is the first small crack in the cable edifice.  Who needs TV at all?  Just make HBO GO into the primary delivery method, a pure online subscription service completely independent of the cable companies.

[Learz]

Specifically, from the virtual "owner" of HBO:

 

"If you go around the world, I think you're right, that 'Game of Thrones' is the most pirated show in the world," he said. "Now that's better than an Emmy."

 

http://www.washingto...he-has-a-point/

[Phate]

HBO has made it very clear that they don't care if people pirate GoT.  Their position is basically that it still benefits them to get more people watching it.  I have been wondering if this position is the first small crack in the cable edifice.  Who needs TV at all?  Just make HBO GO into the primary delivery method, a pure online subscription service completely independent of the cable companies.

Oh really?
 

Dear Comcast High-Speed Internet Subscriber:

Comcast has received a notification by a copyright owner, or its authorized agent, reporting an alleged infringement of one or more copyrighted works made on or over Comcast's High-Speed Internet service (the 'Service'). The copyright owner has identified the Internet Protocol ('IP') address associated with your Service account at the time as the source of the infringing works. The works identified by the copyright owner in its notification are listed below. Comcast reminds you that use of the Service (or any part of the Service) in any manner that constitutes an infringement of any copyrighted work is a violation of Comcast's Acceptable Use Policy and may result in the suspension or termination of your Service account.

If you have any questions regarding this notice, you may direct them to Comcast in one of the following formats:

Comcast Customer Security Assurance
Comcast Cable Communications, LLC
1800 Bishops Gate Blvd., 3rd Floor East Wing
Mount Laurel, NJ 08054 U.S.A.
Phone: (888) 565-4329
Fax: (856) 324-2940

For more information regarding Comcast's copyright infringement policy, procedures, and contact information, please read our Acceptable Use Policy by clicking on the Terms of Service link at http://www.comcast.net.

Sincerely,
Comcast Customer Security Assurance

Copyright work(s) identified in the notification of claimed infringement:

Title: Game of Thrones
Timestamp: 2014-05-12T08:09:02Z
IP Address: 24.20.###.###
Port: 54521
Type: BitTorrent
Torrent Hash: 64ebb724d66ae0a528a8f3647e71431dc7858938
Filename: Game.of.Thrones.S04E06.720p.HDTV.x264-DIMENSION.mkv
Filename: Game.of.Thrones.S04E06.720p.HDTV.x264-DIMENSION.mkv
Filesize: 913 MB

HBO shows are in fact the only torrents I've been reported for in the last year. They police them quite enthusiastically.

[Haflinger]

Torrent sites are still widely available, however, and to the best of my knowledge there've not been any significant attempts to block public access to torrent or other P2P sites, and I don't foresee that there will be in the near future.

That's because the orders to block access to Piratebay etc. are made under the DMCA in the US and equivalent legislation in other countries.

There's no equivalent of the DMCA in Canada.

[Redezra]

Phate, what happens when you get hit with one of those?