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5 Reasons I know many of the "Rebels" are actually Russians


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#1 Manoka

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:30 AM

5 Reasons I know many of the "Rebels" are actually Russians
 
Undoubtedly, many of the pro-Russian rebels are Russian. It's a standard Spetsnaz tactic to go in, train and arm the indigenous people, and then use them to do fighting for you. Be it through sheer propaganda, recruiting angry rebellious youths, or just crazy people, it's a standard tactic, even of the Americans (most notably the Green Beret) to go in and train the indigenous people. Typically, Russian trained forces are known as terrorists, and American are known as Freedom fighters (and just to clear things up, the Taliban were created in 1994, 6 years after the Soviet-Afghanistan war, meaning no, we did not creat them), but I digress. 
 
While there is little doubt in my mind that many of these rebels are rebels, many more are likely legitimate Russian troops. And not just Russian troops, but elite forces, that is Special Forces. The resemblances are too uncanny and too close to be anything but a planned attack. Some of the below are specific to Russians, some are specific to professional military's in general, but a large part of the information is in the details. 
 
 
1. Weapons- The immediately glaring thing that stands out to me are the weapons used in the pictures. While we can argue that Russia has armed much of the world, enemy and allies alike, more specifically with the Ak-47 and Ak-74, the most populous firearms in the world (with over 100 million of the 875 or so million firearms in the world being an ak-47, and the vast majority being soviet or Chinese produced/designed, both large communist country's), the startling thing is that the weapons used by the Rebels are not such weapons. The Ak-47 was produced in the 100's of millions, copied by the Chinese in the Type 56, which was itself copied and produced by Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, and many more country's. Only 5 million Ak-74's have been produced, as it is the "new" weapon of the Russian army, still the standard service weapon today. Still, such weapons are not inconceivable to be in the hands of non-Russians, as while new even by Russian standards, and rare, they are present in limited quantities in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajakistan, and other such country's. No, most surprising is their used of highly specific weapons. While the Ak-74 is the new Russian weapon, specialized weapons, such as the Ak-107 and AN-94 are being used abundantly. These are easy to distinguish, by their black plastic, characteristic handguard and stock, and muzzlebreaks in front of them, which help keep the weapon oriented. The AN-94 has a unique two round burst feature, which allows two rounds to land right on top of each other, thus enhancing the stopping power of the round, or it's armor piercing ability; by firing two rounds so quickly that the recoil isn't felt (at 2100 RPM), it's possible for the two rounds to land almost exactly on top of each other, even at a range. The AK-107 doesn't replicate this effect per say, but it's recoil reduction system by using a precisely calibrated star shaped sprocket weight as a counter balance makes the weapon more or less reduce the recoil, thus increasing the accuracy, but not on par with the AN-94. While the Ak-107 was designed as a cheaper variant for the AN-94, it was never adopted by the Russian forces, since it as well as the AN-94 were considered too expensive. Reserved almost entirely for elite units, it's now being used quite frequently by soldiers in the region, on the Pro-Russian side. 
 
The average Russian soldier, of whom is in the military with the 3rd largest amount of military spending in the world, does not have this weapon. It is practically inconceivable that Rebels are simply being allowed to use this weapon, or that the Russians did not VERY SPECIFICALLY arm them, since literally no other country in the world is *allowed* by Russia to access to them. It's almost an egregious slap in the face that they would use them at all, since it's practically a symbol of their elite forces. Some might argue they possess a resemblance to the Ak-74M, but even they are not used by any other country in the world, and still are reserved for their elite troops. Whatever the case, these are not even normal Russian soldiers, let alone just normal Rebels. 
 
2. Everything screams Russian tactics and organization. The U.S. army operates in a 9 man squad; you have two fire teams of 4, and an NCO attached, usually a sergeant, to keep in charge. In the marines, you have 3 fireteams, and then 1 NCO attached, as well as a marksmen (to have a slightly larger squad, with a geometric advanced squad tactics in their unit). Army special forces is 12, similar in operation to the marines (with the marksmen and officer integrated into the squad, instead of a separate unit), and Navy Seals having an 8 man (instead of the extra 9th man tacked on). Their are characteristic aspects of how they operate, from the weapons they use to their tactics. 1 guy has an M249, 3 have M16's, and one has a grenade launcher. 1 is the fireteam lead, typically with a radio and others, the last rifleman might have a medkit, some extra equipment such as claymore mines, or simply be used as a scout since they have the lighest combat pack. The simple basis of their maneuvers is leap frog; one team provides covering fire, the other team advances. The goal is to use natural barriers, such as trees, hills, or cars as an obstacle for enemy fire, seeking cover, and to lay down enough fire while moving to count as "cover", a virtual wall of lead, to keep the enemy's head down. The vast majority of rounds used in combat are used in this manner, as the U.S. fires approximately 3000 rounds per every enemy causality, largely since they are used for covering fire. 
 
The standard Russian army operates in a block of 10. This is easy to do logistically, but rather lacking in overall strategies, being a generally poor tactic. While the Germans did something similar in WWII, such operations are simple and take little training, with the unit progressing as a single block, intended to operate as a platoon (using multiple squads, one providing covering fire and such, instead of fireteams). Their ability to work breaks down at the squad level, with no individual fireteams to be capable of such a leap frog maneuver. Furthermore, many units are "wasted" on weapons that can only carry 2-5 rounds realistically (such as the RPG-7, with each round being over 10 pounds, and your average soldier carrying a base minimum of 28 pounds of food and an additional 20 pounds of equipment, only intended to carry 75 pounds of gear), which more or less increases the firepower of the unit, but puts that solider into the unusual position of only having "1 bullet", or 5 bullets, that can't be fired at close range. At this level, he depends on his fellow soldiers for protection, and would not be capable of operating alone. The machine gunner and other units in the squad suffer the same problems, but since they are transported by mechanized vehicles, typically tend to avoid a lot of these weight or mobility issues. 
 
The same cannot be said for lighter, reconnaissance units. Intended primarily to fulfill such a role, airborne units in particularly being used to this type of operation, they were expected to be dropped off deep behind enemy lines, without tanks or other heavy equipment, and then sent to disable equipment such as anti-air rockets, nuclear missiles, and communication lines. Lacking the sophisticated technology of the U.S., the Russians realized early on that their only potential for advantage would be "human" power, utilizing sneaky tactics, and thus they invested heavily in their special forces and intelligence agencies (the U.S. has 20,000 people in the CIA, but the FSB has over 300,000 members, the single largest intelligence agency in the world). While the U.S. could fly around anywhere in the world with a stealth bomber and blow anyone up at a moment's notice, also projecting power via aircraft carriers, the Russians lacked such capabilities, and thus their only means of less than obvious military action was to send in people who could blend in with a crowd or be small and agile enough to avoid immediate detection to do the damage. The Russian GRU were literally originally designed to extend beyond the typical 150-200 km range of a typically reconnaissance unit, up to 750 km, which literally required some abilities not available to ordinary humans. The grueling 5 year training program notoriously killed over 10% of their forces, who were trained to have endurance beyond that of normal humans, carrying over 130 pounds of equipment, and consuming half the food typically required by a normal human. It was also part of their missions to go deep behind enemy lines and plant nuclear weapons at key facilities, lacking the ability for pin point explosives. 
 
While the U.S. has similar units, most notably Force Recon, and LRRP rangers, or similar training in Delta Force, these are only the best trained and most selective units, sent on these incredibly difficult but highly selective and specialized operations. They tend to operate in fire and maneuver teams, a tactic taught in the marines, but generally not used among the U.S. military. These are developed very specifically for long range reconnaissance units, of which the Spetsnaz had it's foundation and the basis of it's 5 year (compared to the 2 year Navy Seal training, most of that occurring after graduation), but very specific to them. This 2 man team buddy system is found almost everywhere, as are their weapons of choice, as is practically everything else about them. 
 
The Spetsnaz, in all manners of the word, are pretty out there. While small unit tactics evolve under the particular scenarios (such as when using light reconnaissance units), The Russians are a little mellow dramatic, so it's common for them to be like "but what if you were on your side, and you needed to shoot, and roll over, and maintain accuracy! What would you do! OR IF YOU NEEDED A BACK FLIPPING HATCHET ATTACK?! TRAIN 5 YEARS ON HOW TO PERFECT THAT!" There's even a ballistic knife, a knife that shoots out it's blade, so if just such an unrealistic knife fight were to occur in modern combat, they'd possess a decisive advantage if your enemy wasn't expecting such an attack. Yeah. Anyways, while light recconisance units have small forces of 4-7 mean usually trained fundamentally different from the rest of their forces on how to operate with such small sizes, the Russian spetsnaz have adopted these tactics as their primary means of operation. While technically classified, it's well known that the Russians use 2 man teams, instead of 4 man teams like the U.S., or the buddy system. While the leap frog system is the most basic form of small unit tactic present, forming the foundation of most units, the Russians do this at the smallest unit possible, down to 2 man units, one single person providing covering fire, and the other side advancing. Due to the nature of this combat, specialized weapons are removed, such as RPG's and machine guns, largely for the need for soldiers to be interchangeable in their positions. Virtually every other soldier will have a grenade launcher, while the other one likely carries more ammo to be more a machine gunner, or Automatic Rifleman than the other. With better weapons, longer sustained fire is plausible ,and larger magazines holding up to 100 round aren't unrealistic, making the weapons small enough to be assault rifles, but still reliable enough to function as a machine gun. With proper trigger discipline, it's possible to replicate both weapon systems with the appropriate weapon
 
Something fairly unique to the Spetsnaz in general however is their tendency to roll in combat. While training to shoot from the side or while upside is present in most U.S. special forces, it is a key focus in Spetsnaz training. The Spetsnaz roll almost everywhere they go. While it is a good thing to know how to do in an emergency, the Russians do it to make themselves harder targets to hit, and in general to make shooting while moving easy. It is a tactic more or less unseen by any unit in the world except Russian Spetsnaz, let alone likely to be used by regular units.
 
3. Their sheer appearance is that of the Russian military. For starters, they all have the same equipment. Typically, when a rag tag militia comes together to fight, they grab whatever gear and equipment they have laying around their house and go. They don't suddenly all come together with the exact same ideas to hit coordinated targets at the same time, with the same fashion sense, choosing to wear identical camouflage, wear identical boots, wear identical vests and balaclavas, and so on. While the type of body armor and it's ubitiques nature is quite revealing, they were at least armed by the Russian military, who currently is the only known country to use such distinct armor, which is known to many as "The Martians". With their oversized helmets and equipment, it is in general clear they are not only professional, but Russian, and special forces at that, who are the only ones to recieve such head gear. Body armor aside, the camouflage they are wearing is that of the FSB, the guns they are using are reserved primarily for elite units, and the fact that they all dress the same, look the same, and act in unison is clear signs they are not simply rebels. They have planned, trained, and been given their equipment by a handful of specific individuals intent on logistic similarities. They operate without clear insignia, which is incredibly difficult for a force so organized, meaning they clearly are very well trained, which the average Russian soldier is not. With their recruitment of locals, a well known tactic by special forces, it's almost certain these are not even normal Russian soldiers, but elite units. 
 
They march in unison, operating in units of 2; in essence, they walk like Russians. They use the same radios, call signs, command structures and organization; in essence, they talk like Russians. They wear the same gear, they use the same tactics, they use things reserved for the most elite of the elite. If one walks like a Russian, talks like a Russian, looks like a Russian, in every way mimics a Russian, but not only that, an elite Special Force's unit, clearly using the same tactics... they likely are a Russian. In fact there's little doubt in my mind they are. It would be one hell of a coincidence for all of this to just be "happening" spontaneously right after Russia pulled a stunt in Crimea with nearly identical looking troops that they also initially denied were Russians.
 
You'll see those guys who look different, and there very much are pro-russian rebels, but then you'll see the guys who look alike and serious, and have to wonder why that's the case. [1][2][3][4][5]
 
An interesting one is the pro-russian insignia you see on this guy's shoulder. 
 
 
4. Body Armor- as mentioned before, their body armor is very characteristic of Russian forces. However, since almost no military in the world wears body armor, let alone criminal, it's clear that they are a more professional military. While some would cry police, police don't wear helmets, and nor do they wear body armor on the outside of their clothing. Generally intended for comfort conceability, these are clearly on the outside of their uniforms, with their tactical vests attached, and their choice of equipment is specific to that of the Russians, in fact the Russian SPETSNAZ. These cover the neck, the groin, the upper arms, and lower legs. These are new developments even by body armor standards, only recently adopted by the U.S. until about 2006. This is partially due to better material construction, which is strong enough to warrant such thin materials over moving joints to operate without scrunching up or limiting mobility. They are also light weight enough in general not to weigh the soldiers down. Since such armor will not stop a standard rifle round, it's used almost entirely against shrapnel, chiefly mortar and artillery shrapnel, specifically from IED's. Since the vast majority of casualties produced by forces in Chechyna and Afghanistan use such weapons, it's generally considered relevant almost entirely for those reasons. Their kinetic absorption abilities are also ideal for when vehicles are targeted, the most common targets of IED's, so that a soldier survives a crash or hitting their heads. In fact, even among civilians, body armor saves more lives in car accidents than from actual gunshot wounds. 
 
Thus it's an indication not only of Russian FSB, not only of Russian Spetsnaz, but a professional army in general, with the only two country's in the world having adopted such tactics. It's a tactic that develops when a military with sophisticated materials technology fights a military much weaker than it, so long, it begins to specialize. It uses previously otherwise useless armor that can't stop the main bullets the enemy is using, to stop explosives and shrapnel. Because bullets no longer are your primary problems, but mines, suicide bombers and IED's, this type of armor becomes significantly more useful. And they aren't things like aircraft bombs which would just kill everyone anyways, but light enough to be stopped by such armor. 
 
5. Satellite Imagery and their methodology in Crimea- It's no secret Russia uses under handed tactics in warfare, making cheap shots and playing on politics, but this is more or less an exact mimic of Crimea. Entire Russian units go missing. They appear at the border, then enter the Russian area. They recruit locals and train them in Russian facilities or other areas, and then use them to fight for them, at least as the first wave. This is right out of their playbook, and an exact parallel to Crimea. Unmarked, clearly trained and well equipped Soldiers entered, they claimed to not know of anything, then once they achieved they achieved their objectives, announced their actions openly. 
 
As soon as they succeed, if they succeed, they'll likely announce they were involved the whole time. But only when it's favorable or they've won. For now, it's unlikely they'd admit any involvement. They'll claim it's democratic and all that but ban anyone from really knowing the results, asking us to trust the invading army to be fair and legitimate. Then we'll see them do the same. It's really not a secret that Russians are operating over there. But, I suppose it's okay if they don't directly admit to it. That's how politics works.




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#2 Imperator

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:06 AM

I appreciate the effort through which you go through to post, but this really seems like a conspiracy theory to me. For some of the stuff, like the Russian insignia patch, it could be the same as those Peshmerga patches for the Iraqi army, simply re-purposed stuff from another military/armed force.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainian forces use Soviet tactics still too. This is taking place in ex-Soviet countries, after all.

 

Some of those rebels could be ex-Soviet, Russian, or Ukrainian military or have been conscripted when they were younger before the break-up.

 

These are just some of the points that have simpler/alternative explanations that make more sense. I don't doubt Moscow is still supporting them, however. ;)


Edited by Imperator, 02 August 2014 - 04:07 AM.


#3 the rebel

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:08 AM

If you are going to directly copy and paste wiki and other places then at least source it, rather than pass it off as your own.

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#4 Manoka

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:35 AM

I appreciate the effort through which you go through to post, but this really seems like a conspiracy theory to me. For some of the stuff, like the Russian insignia patch, it could be the same as those Peshmerga patches for the Iraqi army, simply re-purposed stuff from another military/armed force.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainian forces use Soviet tactics still too. This is taking place in ex-Soviet countries, after all.

 

Some of those rebels could be ex-Soviet, Russian, or Ukrainian military or have been conscripted when they were younger before the break-up.

 

These are just some of the points that have simpler/alternative explanations that make more sense. I don't doubt Moscow is still supporting them, however. ;)

The patches aren't as important, so much as the weapons are the one's that only Russian uses and won't allowed to be exported, now suddenly in the hands of random rebels. Reserved only for their elite troops, not even among regular Russian infantry. It has to at least be coming from them. As far as the tactics are concerned, I highlighted specifically Spetsnaz stuff. Typically, they operate in blocks of 10, but the Spetsnaz operate in teams of 2, and while you see RPG's and other such weapons among the Ukraine forces, 1 out of every 10 men, you're seeing largely a handful of very specific, very isolated weapons, such as the AN-94 and Ak-107 among light infantry, traditionally filling out the Spetsnaz forces (regular Russian troops also use this 10 man set up, while the Russians use a 2 man one for flexibility and for reconnaissance patrols). 

 

These were weapons adopted after the Soviet Union, more importantly, and also the equipment, which is uniquely Russian, and yet nearly ubiquitous among the troops. 

 

 

 

Essentially, the body armor and guns they are using are weapons the Ukraine and even most of the Russian army doesn't have. 

 

It would be like an F-22 doing a fly by over an area; it would have to be American. Unless America was just giving away it's F-22 to random rebels. 

 

 

Another thing is the striking similarity to the Crimean forces that invaded. 

 

More or less, it could just be an extension of that force. They denied that their unmarked troops were Russian until after they took over Crimea, they likely are going to do the same until they take over other parts of the Ukraine they want. It's deniability so they can halt, delay, or even permanently confuse a western advance. 


Edited by Manoka, 02 August 2014 - 04:44 AM.


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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:37 AM

If you are going to directly copy and paste wiki and other places then at least source it, rather than pass it off as your own.

Like wut?



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Posted 02 August 2014 - 08:24 AM

I appreciate the effort through which you go through to post, but this really seems like a conspiracy theory to me. For some of the stuff, like the Russian insignia patch, it could be the same as those Peshmerga patches for the Iraqi army, simply re-purposed stuff from another military/armed force.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainian forces use Soviet tactics still too. This is taking place in ex-Soviet countries, after all.

 

Some of those rebels could be ex-Soviet, Russian, or Ukrainian military or have been conscripted when they were younger before the break-up.

 

These are just some of the points that have simpler/alternative explanations that make more sense. I don't doubt Moscow is still supporting them, however. ;)

The patches aren't as important, so much as the weapons are the one's that only Russian uses and won't allowed to be exported, now suddenly in the hands of random rebels. Reserved only for their elite troops, not even among regular Russian infantry. It has to at least be coming from them. As far as the tactics are concerned, I highlighted specifically Spetsnaz stuff. Typically, they operate in blocks of 10, but the Spetsnaz operate in teams of 2, and while you see RPG's and other such weapons among the Ukraine forces, 1 out of every 10 men, you're seeing largely a handful of very specific, very isolated weapons, such as the AN-94 and Ak-107 among light infantry, traditionally filling out the Spetsnaz forces (regular Russian troops also use this 10 man set up, while the Russians use a 2 man one for flexibility and for reconnaissance patrols). 

 

These were weapons adopted after the Soviet Union, more importantly, and also the equipment, which is uniquely Russian, and yet nearly ubiquitous among the troops. 

 

 

 

Essentially, the body armor and guns they are using are weapons the Ukraine and even most of the Russian army doesn't have. 

 

It would be like an F-22 doing a fly by over an area; it would have to be American. Unless America was just giving away it's F-22 to random rebels. 

 

 

Another thing is the striking similarity to the Crimean forces that invaded. 

 

More or less, it could just be an extension of that force. They denied that their unmarked troops were Russian until after they took over Crimea, they likely are going to do the same until they take over other parts of the Ukraine they want. It's deniability so they can halt, delay, or even permanently confuse a western advance. 

The AN-94 is a nice looking weapon and definitely an upgrade (in terms of body armour penetration) over the reliable but dated older AK models.

 

Perhaps they're Russian "advisors". :P



#7 Manoka

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:50 PM

 

I appreciate the effort through which you go through to post, but this really seems like a conspiracy theory to me. For some of the stuff, like the Russian insignia patch, it could be the same as those Peshmerga patches for the Iraqi army, simply re-purposed stuff from another military/armed force.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainian forces use Soviet tactics still too. This is taking place in ex-Soviet countries, after all.

 

Some of those rebels could be ex-Soviet, Russian, or Ukrainian military or have been conscripted when they were younger before the break-up.

 

These are just some of the points that have simpler/alternative explanations that make more sense. I don't doubt Moscow is still supporting them, however. ;)

The patches aren't as important, so much as the weapons are the one's that only Russian uses and won't allowed to be exported, now suddenly in the hands of random rebels. Reserved only for their elite troops, not even among regular Russian infantry. It has to at least be coming from them. As far as the tactics are concerned, I highlighted specifically Spetsnaz stuff. Typically, they operate in blocks of 10, but the Spetsnaz operate in teams of 2, and while you see RPG's and other such weapons among the Ukraine forces, 1 out of every 10 men, you're seeing largely a handful of very specific, very isolated weapons, such as the AN-94 and Ak-107 among light infantry, traditionally filling out the Spetsnaz forces (regular Russian troops also use this 10 man set up, while the Russians use a 2 man one for flexibility and for reconnaissance patrols). 

 

These were weapons adopted after the Soviet Union, more importantly, and also the equipment, which is uniquely Russian, and yet nearly ubiquitous among the troops. 

 

 

 

Essentially, the body armor and guns they are using are weapons the Ukraine and even most of the Russian army doesn't have. 

 

It would be like an F-22 doing a fly by over an area; it would have to be American. Unless America was just giving away it's F-22 to random rebels. 

 

 

Another thing is the striking similarity to the Crimean forces that invaded. 

 

More or less, it could just be an extension of that force. They denied that their unmarked troops were Russian until after they took over Crimea, they likely are going to do the same until they take over other parts of the Ukraine they want. It's deniability so they can halt, delay, or even permanently confuse a western advance. 

The AN-94 is a nice looking weapon and definitely an upgrade (in terms of body armour penetration) over the reliable but dated older AK models.

 

Perhaps they're Russian "advisors". :P

Exactly! 

 

They are likely Russian special forces, whom they use as advisers, just like the U.S. does. xP

 

 

Maybe not present in large amounts, but they are probably arming and training the rebels, giving them battle strategies and up to date satellite information so as to know how to coordinate their attacks. 



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#8 Manoka

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 08:07 PM

Even though I wrote this at like, 4 A.M. in the morning, it's still totally legit, man. xP



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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:27 AM

Ok, first, I agree with your premise. I think only the most naive or brainwashed believe that there is no Russian support for these rebels. But... Gonna have to throw the bullshit flag on some of your points. 1, it's true that many modern Russian armaments are not allowed to be sold to foreign nations. But, that does not mean that the Russian gov't does not allow "gifts" to friends. Same as the U.S. Many of our allies in the developing world not only have Vietnam-era M16s, but also the updated M16A2s and even M4s. While it is highly probable that some of the forces seen with these weapons are Russian, it is not a (sorry about this) "smoking gun." 2, many nations use the tactics of others. In fact, during the Cold War, it was pretty common for much of the world's militarized (and even amateur guerrilla groups) to use either American or Soviet tactics. Some of it was because of training, some of it was them trying to show the world what side they were on, and sometimes it was simply what worked best for them. These were our spheres of influence. And, since Ukraine was behind the Iron Curtain, as was said above, they had the same tactics. Even the Ukrainian military uses the same tactics (adapted now after years of Joint training with the U.S., but still mostly Soviet doctrine). Many militias include members that are we're once members of the military. This is even more prevalent in those nations where conscription took place. Also, it's called "Bounding-Over-Watch." If you are going to reference a tactic, at least get its name right. 3, So all Slavs look the same? That's just racist. I'm kidding! But seriously, your argument is that they all look the same? Have you ever heard of gangs? Many times, groups use symbols, and especially uniforms, to bring members together and act as one. Bloods, Cryps, white supremacists, Hamas, they all have uniforms of some sort. And remember, being supplied and supported by the Russians does not mean that they ARE Russian. 4, Um, what?! Almost no military in the world wears body armor? Seriously?! How many nations have been part of ISAF-A (International Security Assistance Force-Afghanistan)? And, how many countries sent troops as part of the "Coalition of the Willing" in Iraq? I'm pretty sure they all wore body armor. Not to mention the countless private security contractors. So no, body armor is not that rare. 5, First, underhanded tactics and cheap shots in war? No such thing. Second, playing on politics? War is politics.

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#10 Manoka

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 05:32 AM

The tactics specifically refer to those of the Spetsnaz, whom are special forces, of which rebels wouldn't usually have training at all, and the weapons are also specific for Spetsnaz. There really weren't that many M16's in the hands of other country's (there's only 8 million total, compared to over 100 million ak-47's), but we don't have an equivalent of AN-94's or AK-107's. The average soldier uses M4's or M16's, with no real special weapon set aside for special forces. Unlike Russia, of whom the Spetsnaz are the only force in Russia to even use those weapons. And they're very distinct in appearance. It would be like using an F-22. 

 

Also gangs also wear different clothes, like, shoes and such. We're talking about the exact same clothing, identical boots, helmets, armor, guns, training, camouflage, and operating in a fashion reserved primarily for LRRP units. They also appear exactly like the Crimean troops. 

 

 

Also most the other country's mostly use out dated PASG stuff. 

 

The key point is that it's Special Forces specific stuff. They utilize fire and maneuver teams, typically not present in regular units, meaning it's not regular tactics. It's typically reserved for reconnaissance units, but the Spetsnaz use it extensively. The fins, Swedish, and some of the French units use them, but it's overall pretty rare unless you operate in really small units, like smaller than a squad. 


Edited by Manoka, 03 August 2014 - 05:36 AM.


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#11 the rebel

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:51 AM

The Ukrainian army has killed a fair few rebels... So let's see these Russian special forces combat weaponry that has been seized from the fallen.

You're just talking about different tactics and weaponry that have nothing to do with the topic and no evidence. Then twisting it and spoon feeding it as propaganda and misinformation.

For a country that was very much Russian in my short lifetime they would use Russian tactics and be Russian trained since most of these rebels are older than me.

------

That's 1,2 and 3 answered. 4 is laughably ignorant and 5 hasn't happened.

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#12 Manoka

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 09:16 AM

The Ukrainian army has killed a fair few rebels... So let's see these Russian special forces combat weaponry that has been seized from the fallen.

You're just talking about different tactics and weaponry that have nothing to do with the topic and no evidence. Then twisting it and spoon feeding it as propaganda and misinformation.

For a country that was very much Russian in my short lifetime they would use Russian tactics and be Russian trained since most of these rebels are older than me.

------

That's 1,2 and 3 answered. 4 is laughably ignorant and 5 hasn't happened.

Again, specific to special forces. The tactics used by regular infantry men are not going to be the same as those used by Special Forces, for a number of reasons, particularly considering they aren't outfitted for light infantry operations and are integrated into mechanized units (such as with APC's and tanks), which long reconnaissance patrols, of which the GRU is based on, doesn't have (they're original purpose was to go 760 km behind enemy lines!). And the weapons are uniquely utilized by special forces, as in even Russian regulars do not have these weapons, and they have been banned for export, meaning the Ukraine literally does not have them, nor does any other country but Russia. It's like an F-22. It would be one thing to be talking about and F-15 and F-16, but we're talking the next generation stuff that isn't even in mass production yet. This is all sourced in the OP. 

 

Also it's been shown over and over again, I even showed you sources. You'd probs just say the Ukraine was lying though. 

 

A lot of the photos are pointing to specific individuals seen in other conflicts in Georgia and Chechnya, but their weapons and BDU say it all. These weapons are newer models, not used by anyone but Russia, and only recently at that. This guy for instance has a scope that's got to be at least 1500 dollars, and also not available to civilians, let alone anyone but Russia. These are weapons only reserved for the elite. We could argue they're passing them out to rebels, but that means they're having an incredibly important involvement with them. Likely being trained by Spetsnaz. 

 

 

http://www.theguardi...eastern-ukraine

 

http://www.cbsnews.c...astern-ukraine/

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...ukraine-crisis/


Edited by Manoka, 03 August 2014 - 09:24 AM.


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#13 Thrash

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 09:20 AM

It's funny how you think Ukraine doesn't lie. They even say NATO is lying.



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#14 Manoka

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 09:39 AM

It's funny how you think Ukraine doesn't lie. They even say NATO is lying.

I'm sure they could. 

 

But there are dozens of photos that show very similar occurrences. 

 

 

Even in Russian media. 

 

As soon as everyone makes a fuss about it they deny it or just take the pictures down. Essentially, it's so widespread it's basically in plain view. 



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#15 the rebel

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:00 PM


The Ukrainian army has killed a fair few rebels... So let's see these Russian special forces combat weaponry that has been seized from the fallen.

You're just talking about different tactics and weaponry that have nothing to do with the topic and no evidence. Then twisting it and spoon feeding it as propaganda and misinformation.

For a country that was very much Russian in my short lifetime they would use Russian tactics and be Russian trained since most of these rebels are older than me.

------

That's 1,2 and 3 answered. 4 is laughably ignorant and 5 hasn't happened.

Again, specific to special forces. The tactics used by regular infantry men are not going to be the same as those used by Special Forces, for a number of reasons, particularly considering they aren't outfitted for light infantry operations and are integrated into mechanized units (such as with APC's and tanks), which long reconnaissance patrols, of which the GRU is based on, doesn't have (they're original purpose was to go 760 km behind enemy lines!). And the weapons are uniquely utilized by special forces, as in even Russian regulars do not have these weapons, and they have been banned for export, meaning the Ukraine literally does not have them, nor does any other country but Russia. It's like an F-22. It would be one thing to be talking about and F-15 and F-16, but we're talking the next generation stuff that isn't even in mass production yet. This is all sourced in the OP.

Also it's been shown over and over again, I even showed you sources. You'd probs just say the Ukraine was lying though.

A lot of the photos are pointing to specific individuals seen in other conflicts in Georgia and Chechnya, but their weapons and BDU say it all. These weapons are newer models, not used by anyone but Russia, and only recently at that. This guy for instance has a scope that's got to be at least 1500 dollars, and also not available to civilians, let alone anyone but Russia. These are weapons only reserved for the elite. We could argue they're passing them out to rebels, but that means they're having an incredibly important involvement with them. Likely being trained by Spetsnaz.


http://www.theguardi...eastern-ukraine

http://www.cbsnews.c...astern-ukraine/

http://www.cnn.com/2...ukraine-crisis/

Repeatedly ranting on about special forces and regurgitation of it out of context to Ukraine is nothing but off topic nonsense.

Ah the links of lack of detailed photographs as proof of special forces. Did you know many many many people have people who look like them. If you bothered to read your own provided links they even say the similarities are small and loosely match.

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#16 Manoka

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 06:52 PM

 


The Ukrainian army has killed a fair few rebels... So let's see these Russian special forces combat weaponry that has been seized from the fallen.

You're just talking about different tactics and weaponry that have nothing to do with the topic and no evidence. Then twisting it and spoon feeding it as propaganda and misinformation.

For a country that was very much Russian in my short lifetime they would use Russian tactics and be Russian trained since most of these rebels are older than me.

------

That's 1,2 and 3 answered. 4 is laughably ignorant and 5 hasn't happened.

Again, specific to special forces. The tactics used by regular infantry men are not going to be the same as those used by Special Forces, for a number of reasons, particularly considering they aren't outfitted for light infantry operations and are integrated into mechanized units (such as with APC's and tanks), which long reconnaissance patrols, of which the GRU is based on, doesn't have (they're original purpose was to go 760 km behind enemy lines!). And the weapons are uniquely utilized by special forces, as in even Russian regulars do not have these weapons, and they have been banned for export, meaning the Ukraine literally does not have them, nor does any other country but Russia. It's like an F-22. It would be one thing to be talking about and F-15 and F-16, but we're talking the next generation stuff that isn't even in mass production yet. This is all sourced in the OP.

Also it's been shown over and over again, I even showed you sources. You'd probs just say the Ukraine was lying though.

A lot of the photos are pointing to specific individuals seen in other conflicts in Georgia and Chechnya, but their weapons and BDU say it all. These weapons are newer models, not used by anyone but Russia, and only recently at that. This guy for instance has a scope that's got to be at least 1500 dollars, and also not available to civilians, let alone anyone but Russia. These are weapons only reserved for the elite. We could argue they're passing them out to rebels, but that means they're having an incredibly important involvement with them. Likely being trained by Spetsnaz.


http://www.theguardi...eastern-ukraine

http://www.cbsnews.c...astern-ukraine/

http://www.cnn.com/2...ukraine-crisis/

Repeatedly ranting on about special forces and regurgitation of it out of context to Ukraine is nothing but off topic nonsense.

Ah the links of lack of detailed photographs as proof of special forces. Did you know many many many people have people who look like them. If you bothered to read your own provided links they even say the similarities are small and loosely match.

That's just specific data outside of what I've already provided. 

 

As well, it's my topic, and my first couple of points were about weapon choice and tactics. That's what this whole thing is about, how they exactly resemble special forces, and possess weapons only available to them and such? As well as body armor?



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#17 CeltSoldierKev

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 11:31 PM

So if your main point is tactics, how do you know what Spetsnaz tactics are? Are you Russian special forces? I'm guessing the answer is no. You read about them online. So, either you are the world's greatest hacker and are able to break into super secret Spesnaz sites, or, maybe, just maybe, they are open sources that anyone can access and read. If that's the case, you don't think that militia types have access to Internet and can read and study those same tactics? And, you are completely ignoring the possibility that some Ukrainians are former Soviet military, maybe even Spetsnaz. And on the topic of tactics, you realize that even in the U.S., there are multiple types of Infantry. Yes, we have Special Forces and the Rangers. But we also have even more "Big Army" Infantry units. And not all of them are heavy mechanized units. For instance, the 82nd specialize in Airborne Mass-tac operations, while the 101st does Air Assault. And then there's 10th Mountain which, well, specializes in mountain warfare. So no, being light Infantry does not necessarily mean Special Operations. As for uniforms, balaclavas are cheap, and you can get a lot at once. Viola, instant uniform. And as for some of your other points, ever heard of the Black Market? You can get anything at that place! Now don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you that SOME of the troops fighting against the Ukrainian government are Spesnaz, but the most logical conclusion is that the Russians sent small teams in to support, train, and assist indigenous rebel forces. Do I believe that the rebels are being supported by the Kremlin? Absolutely, but this wasn't what your premise was. You said that many of them ARE Russians. And, you can't say they are small teams training fighters and then also say, but many of them are Russian. Those 2 points go against each other. You can't come to a conclusion, then twist facts, or even make them up, to fit your theory. Just let the facts speak for themselves and say that the rebels are being supported by Russian.

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#18 Manoka

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:06 AM

Well, it's well known specific tactics are used only by them. Even if Ukranians were ex soviets, they likely wouldn't be their elite troops, at least not in these numbers. Nor would they be carrying the newer equipment. 

 

Here's an example of the "roll" technique.

 

 

 

 

The second video shows it more frequently, but it starts after a couple of minutes in the video

 

http://youtu.be/IPF5IyN3BJs?t=5m26s

 

 

 

Most soldiers don't roll in combat, because it uses a lot of energy and take your point of aim off the target, as well as disorients you in general. It's pretty difficult to quickly get your sight picture back on target, or keep it in your mind so you don't need to. A form of reflex fire or point fire more or less, not even using the sights. They also weren't designed to be used upside down or side ways, yet that will be how they're used, so it changes a lot about the weapon's sights, more or less making them useless or requiring that you view the sights differently. More or less, it's not a commonly used tactic, and it takes a lot of training to get good at, but that is how the Russians tend to operate. 

 

There's more of it in different competitions and things, but I have yet to see another military that copies it. I'm not saying that the Ukrainians wouldn't be similar to Russia, I'm saying they wouldn't have these very specific things. It's something unique and characteristic. 


Edited by Manoka, 04 August 2014 - 07:08 AM.


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#19 the rebel

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:53 AM

Show me video proof of separatists rolling while in combat with the Ukrainian army, or is this more irrelevance you're spoon feeding?

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#20 Thrash

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:19 PM

Show me video proof of separatists rolling while in combat with the Ukrainian army, or is this more irrelevance you're spoon feeding?

 

shhh, they're still working on making that video.



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