81 replies to this topic

[Haflinger]

Trump doesn't want to help people, he wants to throw all the people he doesn't like out of America. Probably using bullets.

[Shokkou]

A) You're missing the point and

B) Ah the classic "The person I don't like is Hitler" kudos for trying to disguise it at least

[the rebel]

I've been seeing some pictures of polls showing in a head to head Trump vs Clinton and its showing neck or neck of Trump lead.... Legit or instrgram trolling?

[Thrash]

 he wants to throw all the people criminals he doesn't like out of America. Probably using bullets.

 

fixed that for ya.

[Haflinger]

He is a criminal. Last I checked, attacking people was a crime.

[Shokkou]

If committing any crime is cause for one to be branded a criminal for life, then I am also a criminal. I speed all the time, and that's a crime. Stop trying to pretend that people who are here illegally ought not have the law applied to them and stop trying to pretend that an unrelated matter somehow influences the rightness of another.

Edited by Shokkou, 05 May 2016 - 08:12 PM.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Speeding is not a criminal offense, it is a civil infraction. Speeders are not criminals.

[Shokkou]

Speed limits are set by statute. Statutes are laws. Violating a statute is violating a law. Violating a law is committing an illegal act. QED

[Haflinger]

Speeding is not a criminal offense, it is a civil infraction. Speeders are not criminals.

You're sort of right. However, speeding in some circumstances can be considered reckless driving, which often is a crime.

 

However, smoking pot's a crime.

[Shokkou]

Regardless:

Stop trying to pretend that people who are here illegally ought not have the law applied to them and stop trying to pretend that an unrelated matter somehow influences the rightness of another.

[Thrash]

He is a criminal. Last I checked, attacking people was a crime.

 

Who did Trump attack?

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Speeding is not a criminal offense, it is a civil infraction. Speeders are not criminals.

You're sort of right. However, speeding in some circumstances can be considered reckless driving, which often is a crime.

 

However, smoking pot's a crime.

 

Not in lots of places, including Massachusetts. It's a civil infraction.

 

For the record, being in this country "illegally" is also not a crime. It too is a civil infraction. And also for the record, illegal immigration has been down.

[Shokkou]

"Being an undocumented migrant is a civil infraction" is fucktard doublespeak for "illegally entering the country is a criminal act."

 

It may be treated differently than, say, robbery or murder... but it's a crime. There is a law. It is being broken. That's called crime. People who do crime are criminals. If it were purely civil and not criminal, we would be suing people instead of rounding them up and sending them home.

Edited by Shokkou, 06 May 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

No, it's not. A civil infraction is different from a crime (the link is for Massachusetts, but the general principle is the same nationwide). Crimes are punishable by jail time, civil infractions are not. One results in a criminal record, the other does not. That's why your speeding tickets don't turn up on a criminal records check. Neither would being in the country illegally (although it would certainly turn up in other records).

 

Now, you might argue this is nitpicking, and maybe it is. And arguing over legal definitions is not particularly productive anyway (yay OCD!). The point is that illegal immigration is not nearly the problem that some make it out to be. It's blaming the poor and disenfranchised in order to distract attention from the real badguys.

[Shokkou]

But it is a problem, and ignoring it entirely (or worse, trying to reward those who break the law) because worse problems exist is asinine. Being poor and disenfranchised should not give one a pass to violate the law any more than being wealthy and privileged.

Edited by Shokkou, 06 May 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Meh. It's not a big enough problem to waste so much energy, anger, and vitriol on. It's sort of like the voter ID issue we are discussing in another thread. It's just something being used to pit us against one another. We've got more urgent problems, imo.

[Shokkou]

"Us" being whom? Because if you try to say "Americans" when we're talking about illegal immigration, I will beat you upside the head with a rusty soup ladle. And as I already said, the existence of bigger issues does not mean other problems get swept under the rug to be forgotten about until later. It is a problem. It bears discussion. As such, you can't fault a politician for... you know... discussing it.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I suppose. But they're not just "discussing" it. They're using it to gin up anger and resentment and to distract from bigger issues. In a world of finite resources, you have to set priorities. I don't believe this should be a priority. Think of it as triage, like in an emergency room. You wouldn't treat the broken wrist before the heart attack.

 

By "us" I just mean the United States in general.

[Shokkou]

Which does not include those here illegally in my book. I'm all for making it easier for legit people to come here, but when their first act in this country is to piss on our laws (by coming illegally) and thus spit in the face of the law and order of our society... I can't really find much sympathy for them in terms of keeping them around. I'm sure the vast majority of them are here because of unfortunate circumstances and want to make life better for themselves and their family. Guess what. The people who already live here also want what's best for them and their family, and I'm pretty sure no American citizen knows every immigrant personally. Therefore, it is necessary to vet them properly not out of any belief that any specific individual or even a majority of such individuals are ill-intentioned but to ensure that we and those who are accepted as citizens are safe from that minority of immigrants who would do us harm. By immigrating illegally, they display an utter lack of respect for that right.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

But again, while I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, it's back to the triage example. Yes, it's an issue. But it's not nearly as big an issue as it's made out to be. And there are better places for us to direct our energies as a country.

 

And there is an undeniable undercurrent of racism in this debate too. I don't mean you, Shokkou. But a lot of this is about simply not wanting so many brown people around. People like Pat Buchanan are pretty clear that they want a return to the white America they remember. Boston has a huge number of illegal Irish, but you never hear a thing about it because they're white. This is an easy issue to use to "rile up the rubes," as Bill Maher might phrase it (unhelpfully). But I think you know what I mean.