22 replies to this topic

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I was very disappointed to hear about the Volkswagen emissions scandal. It turns out that for years the German automaker, which recently became the world's largest, has been defrauding regulators and customers by using software to circumvent American emissions requirements. Basically, the emissions systems on diesel VWs only become fully active when the vehicle is undergoing emissions testing, making the cars seem much cleaner than in real-world driving. This was done so that VW could advertise its "clean" diesels as having the same performance as gasoline engines while offering much better fuel economy. In other words, it was a con.

 

VW has issued a recall on these vehicles, and the problem will be fixed, but if you have a diesel VW you should prepare yourself for a shock. Mileage and performance will both suffer. Which is too bad. I drove my buddy's Jetta diesel wagon while I was out in Seattle and was impressed by how smooth, powerful, and generally un-diesel like it was. Too bad it was all built on a lie.

 

This will undoubtedly hurt VW in the American market, where they have always struggled with issues of quality and price. Ultimately I think they will weather it, but their brand and image has been tarnished. A lot of smug assholes' heads are going to explode when they find out how much pollution their "clean" diesels have been spewing into the atmosphere.

 

On the other hand, it's probably a great time to get a deal on a new VW!

[7hersh7]

I was very disappointed to hear about the Volkswagen emissions scandal. It turns out that for years the German automaker, which recently became the world's largest, has been defrauding regulators and customers by using software to circumvent American emissions requirements. Basically, the emissions systems on diesel VWs only become fully active when the vehicle is undergoing emissions testing, making the cars seem much cleaner than in real-world driving. This was done so that VW could advertise its "clean" diesels as having the same performance as gasoline engines while offering much better fuel economy. In other words, it was a con.

 

VW has issued a recall on these vehicles, and the problem will be fixed, but if you have a diesel VW you should prepare yourself for a shock. Mileage and performance will both suffer. Which is too bad. I drove my buddy's Jetta diesel wagon while I was out in Seattle and was impressed by how smooth, powerful, and generally un-diesel like it was. Too bad it was all built on a lie.

 

This will undoubtedly hurt VW in the American market, where they have always struggled with issues of quality and price. Ultimately I think they will weather it, but their brand and image has been tarnished. A lot of smug assholes' heads are going to explode when they find out how much pollution their "clean" diesels have been spewing into the atmosphere.

 

On the other hand, it's probably a great time to get a deal on a new VW!

 

I doubt VW will be able to weather it in USA. Its brand and image are forever tarnished from this scandal, I was a big fan of VW until this point. 

 

And no, the real issue is that those diesel cars do not meet the requirement for most states in the USA in terms of emissions now so really, it is illegal to drive your VW diesel car down the street, at least for CA.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Well, that's not entirely clear. I sincerely doubt that consumers will be held accountable for their cars' polluting. VW already said it will no longer sell diesels in California-emissions states (like Massachusetts), at least until they make some significant changes. Once the fix is done the cars will be drivable, just slower and less fuel efficient. 

 

They're a huge company, so I do believe they'll weather it. Audi took huge losses from the unintended acceleration scandal in the late '80s, and while their market share took a nosedive they survived and eventually recovered. It's going to be a tough road ahead for VW, but there's no such thing as "forever" when it comes to car companies. Once upon a time you would have been laughed out of the room for suggesting, for example, that Fiat would return to the US market and prosper, so badly damaged was their brand image by the 1970s. But now look at them. Time heals all wounds, and the public has a short memory.

[Molagbal]

I was very disappointed to hear about the Volkswagen emissions scandal. It turns out that for years the German automaker, which recently became the world's largest, has been defrauding regulators and customers by using software to circumvent American emissions requirements. Basically, the emissions systems on diesel VWs only become fully active when the vehicle is undergoing emissions testing, making the cars seem much cleaner than in real-world driving. This was done so that VW could advertise its "clean" diesels as having the same performance as gasoline engines while offering much better fuel economy. In other words, it was a con.

 

VW has issued a recall on these vehicles, and the problem will be fixed, but if you have a diesel VW you should prepare yourself for a shock. Mileage and performance will both suffer. Which is too bad. I drove my buddy's Jetta diesel wagon while I was out in Seattle and was impressed by how smooth, powerful, and generally un-diesel like it was. Too bad it was all built on a lie.

 

This will undoubtedly hurt VW in the American market, where they have always struggled with issues of quality and price. Ultimately I think they will weather it, but their brand and image has been tarnished. A lot of smug assholes' heads are going to explode when they find out how much pollution their "clean" diesels have been spewing into the atmosphere.

 

On the other hand, it's probably a great time to get a deal on a new VW!

VW felt like a cheap german car brand anyway.

[KiWi]

I've never had the pleasure to work on a VW myself, but I hear it's shit.

Also "Fuck'em".

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

VW makes cars that have the distinct feel of European automakers. Firm dampening, good handling characteristics, and a vault-like solidity. There's nothing like the satisfying THUNK of the door shutting on a German engineered car (or Swedish, for that matter). But they also have a history of electrical and mechanical problems, being expensive to repair (although that's true of all cars now), and late in life shakes and rattles (Audis get that way too). VW carved out a niche for itself by offering Euro qualities at a discount price, but the problem was (and is) that "discount" price is still higher than competitors from Japanese and Korean automakers.

[HordeLorde]

Frankly it was a brilliant marketing strategy.....until they got caught..... There is a movie coming out about the Housing market fail called The Big Short starring Brad Pitt, Christian Bale and also has Steve Carrell, Ryan gosling and afew others, id like to quote Carrell from the trailer as it applies to this a bit....

 

"Fraud has never, ever worked. Eventually things go South......When did we forget all that?"

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I think fraud works a lot more often than people realize.

[Haflinger]

It often does, because the big stick isn't used.

 

Governments should be prosecuting Volkswagen for criminal fraud. This is an easy case, everyone's already read the proof and VW has essentially pled guilty in the press.

 

And yes, I mean governments. Plural. VW committed criminal fraud in basically every jurisdiction where they sold their diesel vehicles under the assurance that they met the Cali emissions standards when they didn't. So all 50 states of the U.S., plus Puerto Rico, could prosecute separately.

 

Plus Canada. And the U.K. and France and Germany and... well you get the picture I hope.

 

In such a scenario, VW execs would probably be in the position of trying to negotiate with most of the governments of the Western world to please let them not have to declare bankruptcy.

 

Because corporations can't go to jail, not being actual people, so when they get criminal convictions they pay fines, and said fines are usually determined based on their ability to pay. So getting dinged by that many different fines at once would probably ... well let's just say the total would almost certainly be more than their assets.

 

Now if governments would just get off their asses and enforce the laws that have been on the books for decades, fraud would be a seriously risky business. But they won't, so it's generally pretty safe. VW will take a hit, but it'll be fine in five years.

[Justavictim82]

Well I did nazi this coming.

 

Surely Hitler would be ashamed. Bad VW bad.

[HordeLorde]

lol "nazi"

Edited by HordeLorde, 22 September 2015 - 11:28 PM.

[the rebel]

Car emission tests? Heh in most states I've spoken to people from, you lot don't even have proper MOT's or even on a yearly basis on the vehicles you drive.

Henceforth those VW's are probably cleaner on the emissions (minus the "CPU bug") than other cars on the American new and second hand market.

Furthermore since emissions tests became the norm in manufacturing of vehicles, you would be naïve to think its only VW that have been doing the tweaking.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

No, they're not cleaner. They only run clean under testing. Once the testing has stopped, most of the emissions system protections are switched off and it spews pollution.

 

Massachusetts has California emissions. We have to get our cars tested every year. It's very strict.

 

The problem with every country in the world essentially prosecuting VW out of existence is that VW is the biggest carmaker in the world. If they went bankrupt, how many tens of thousands of jobs would be lost? Not to mention ancillary jobs from suppliers, etc. It would be complete economic chaos. Too big to fail, as they say.

 

I was wondering about criminal prosecution, though. No, corporations can't go to jail, but someone signed off on the decision to commit fraud. Someone was in charge. Maybe that person should go to jail. Corporations don't fear fines. But if corporate types thought there was a chance that their asses could end up behind bars, they might think twice before pulling stunts like this.

[Haflinger]

The problem with every country in the world essentially prosecuting VW out of existence is that VW is the biggest carmaker in the world. If they went bankrupt, how many tens of thousands of jobs would be lost? Not to mention ancillary jobs from suppliers, etc. It would be complete economic chaos. Too big to fail, as they say.

It wouldn't happen. But if it was threatened, VW would cut a deal which would set a precedent that this kind of behaviour won't be tolerated.

 

Such a deal would probably result in some government supervision of VW operations. No corporation wants that.

 

What VW did is a lot worse than what FIFA did, they should be hit hard for it.

[the rebel]

No, they're not cleaner. They only run clean under testing. Once the testing has stopped, most of the emissions system protections are switched off and it spews pollution.

Massachusetts has California emissions. We have to get our cars tested every year. It's very strict.

Modern diesel cars are "cleaner" than petrol cars. Of course it depends on what you think "cleaner" means:

Petrol cars produce more carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and hydrocarbons than diesels.
Diesels on the other hand produce more nitrogen oxides and particle matter than petrol.

You're passing on miss information there Jorost, that isn't what happened at all.

What happened was when the CPU knew it was being tested it would only allow the car to run under safety test conditions and would not let it run at full power or performance. Once the test would be completed the CPU would turn off the safety test mode and allow the car to operate at full power and performance.

As for the emissions testing didn't know about that and seems to have many exemptions, but fair enough, point still stands that you don't have proper MOT's, so who cares about emissions when you could be driving a death trap on wheels

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

In this case modern diesels aren't cleaner. That's the point. They used software to make it seem cleaner. Apparently the class action lawsuits are already in the works. It doesn't take lawyers long. Heh.

It won't be long before someone posts road test results with the software corrected. The cars are going to be noticeably slower and less fuel efficient. On the up side, all the smug assholes saying that their diesel was better than a hybrid have now been made to look like, well, assholes.

I just wish it hadn't been a car company I liked. I would have been giddy with glee if it had been GM.

[the rebel]

I'm waiting for them to test all brands petrols and diesel and that's when the shit really hits when its found nearly all are doing it.

Though what all this has brought up, is the good point that was said by one of the experts who originally came across the "bug"... laboratory results on car statistics are never accurate to road user results as the conditions are different and that was for many brands.

Also Jorost every news source I've looked at is talking about it failing and on NO2 levels and not on the other levels.

So my point stands which to you is cleaner a petrol or diesel? The answer is none as they both produce more of one bad thing than the other.

[HordeLorde]

*picks up megaphone, stands on soapbox*

I mean no one in the world really cares do they? think about it, when those neo-hippies pull in their driveway with their electric/hybrid cars, Hayzeus is just finishing up mowing their lawn with a diesel powered john deere. If anyone truly gave a fuck about the environment they'd scream for justice everytime someone tears down an animals natural habitat to build a Starbucks or a freeway, or a megaplex shopping mall with adjacent theater and parking deck. But noooooooooooooooooo.....that green tea frap, jeans from The GAP, and the matinee showing of the Parent Trap starring Brad Pitt and Angelina Hoe-lie is much more important than that nest of Owls, or the family of squirrels, or that pond of fish. And you drove to all those places on the I-405 from hypocrite town!  Why the hell are we trying to save the earth anyways? IT DOES EVERYTHING IT CAN TO KILL US!  Tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, lightning, tsunami's, snowstorms, harmful bacteria everywhere, viruses galore, disease in general, drought which leads to our crops dying which leads to famine. and all that stuff also happened before we even made up the word "emissions". But the neo-hippies say "We have to make the world a better place for our children.Today's time is the worst time to be a child". Oh yeah? FUCK EM! everytime is the worst time to be a child because adults DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY ARE DOING!!!!! and here's why: they just recently came from childhood themselves! and while i'm busy trashing neo-hippies The VEGAN movement is literally a load of shit. #PlantsLivesMatter

It all stems from each and every human beings fear and fascination with their own demise. Let me assure you all, whether one of the aforementioned Natural Death Machines take you out, or a car crash, or the sun explodes, or you choke on some tofu, or your murdered, or nuclear war breaks out, or the andromeda galaxy finally collides with our own, or zombie jesus comes back a raises his christian, catholic and mormon children from the grave to eat your puny brain....we will all surely die. The entire human race DESERVES too die, which is why each and every single one of us eventually does. Praise VW for having the balls to smoke them while they got them and just worrying about living in the here and now. On a little place we all call EARTH: The most dangerous place in the universe per capita

*steps off soap box, drops megaphone*
 

[Redezra]

I think your stats are biased. Venus would be far more dangerous if anyone were alive to experience it

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Agreed.

 

I am interested in the premise that other automakers might be doing similar things, though. A couple of weeks ago I would have thought such an assertion unlikely, but then I also would have figured Volkswagen to be one of the least likely to pull something like this. So no, I would not be surprised to find out that there are more shenanigans going on.

 

They must be feeling pretty good over at Tesla right now.