39 replies to this topic

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Rebel, your refusal to see anyone's opinion but your own as valid is exactly what people are afraid of.

[the rebel]

Rebel, your refusal to see anyone's opinion but your own as valid is exactly what people are afraid of.

I haven't refused to see anyone's opinion, I took in your opinion and looked into it to see if there was any tangible supporting evidence and according to the FBI for the last three reports there isn't anything out of the norm regarding numbers of reported hate crimes.

If they increased considerably in past reports during the long and drawn out election process where he was saying all these racist things. Then I would see a point in the fear, but the stats don't seem back up the fears.

So what are the fears grounded on other than maybes?

[the rebel]

I will say this though the Democrats would of most likely easily won if they put someone else in the running. Blame the superdelegates killing off Sanders for giving the racist bigots a podium.

[Blackatron]

What Progressives as a whole need to do, not just the 18-36 crowd, but the left AS A WHOLE, is build a genuine opposition.

Crying won't prevent shitty policy.

Fucking knuckling up and working hard will.

I sort of have this feeling that they won't though.  I fear that the democratic party will go more left contrary to what they actually should do.  They need to broaden their appeal and not just rely on their base.  They relied on their base this election and they lost. 

 

You say that but there is quite a lot of data out there supporting the claim that Sanders would have done better against Trump than Clinton, despite being much further left. The problem for the Democrats is they picked literally the worst candidate possible.

 

For a left wing party, chasing the opposition to the right is likely to be a long term death sentence anyway, maybe they can succeed occasionally when the right is seen as too extreme or otherwise incredibly unpopular, but eventually the voter base will be split and they will have difficulty winning major elections.

 

 

 

Donald Trump and his nascent administration are making a mistake if they assume some huge mandate here. The fact of the matter is that Trump received fewer votes than Romney lost with in 2012, and just about as many as John McCain lost with in 2008. In fact, you have to go back to 2000 to find a president elected with fewer popular votes (G.W. Bush, who also lost the popular vote). Hillary Clinton received 2 million more votes than Trump; counting Johnson and Stein some 53% of the American public voted against Trump and his agenda. That's a difficult position for any new president to be in, but it is made even more so by the bitter divisiveness of the election. If he can't win some of that 53% over he is not going to have a very successful administration.

 

Didn't realise the margin was so large now...

[Lord Philip]

 

via: http://brilliantmaps.com/did-not-vote/

[voidoid]

What Progressives as a whole need to do, not just the 18-36 crowd, but the left AS A WHOLE, is build a genuine opposition.

 

OK, KB you go left.  Thrash:  you take the Drumphian Teabaggers right.  That leaves the middle for us disaffected moderates of both parties to take the center.  Our 50% should easily beat your 25% each.

 

We desperately need more than two parties to destabilize this recurring clusterfuck.

Edited by voidoid, 24 November 2016 - 10:34 PM.

[Redezra]

*wafts the general idea of proportional voting into the room*

[the rebel]

*wafts the general idea of proportional voting into the room*

Whats that smell, has someone farted?

[the rebel]

What Progressives as a whole need to do, not just the 18-36 crowd, but the left AS A WHOLE, is build a genuine opposition.

OK, KB you go left. Thrash: you take the Drumphian Teabaggers right. That leaves the middle for us disaffected moderates of both parties to take the center. Our 50% should easily beat your 25% each.

We desperately need more than two parties to destabilize this recurring clusterfuck.

America does have more than two parties, just the others are insignificant to the general populace.

[Thrash]

 

What Progressives as a whole need to do, not just the 18-36 crowd, but the left AS A WHOLE, is build a genuine opposition.

OK, KB you go left. Thrash: you take the Drumphian Teabaggers right. That leaves the middle for us disaffected moderates of both parties to take the center. Our 50% should easily beat your 25% each.

We desperately need more than two parties to destabilize this recurring clusterfuck.

America does have more than two parties, just the others are insignificant to the general populace.

 

Courtesy of the media. We ALL have a lot in common. When the media stops parroting what is "right" and what is "wrong" is when we can all come together.

[Redezra]

 

 

What Progressives as a whole need to do, not just the 18-36 crowd, but the left AS A WHOLE, is build a genuine opposition.

OK, KB you go left. Thrash: you take the Drumphian Teabaggers right. That leaves the middle for us disaffected moderates of both parties to take the center. Our 50% should easily beat your 25% each.

We desperately need more than two parties to destabilize this recurring clusterfuck.

America does have more than two parties, just the others are insignificant to the general populace.

 

Courtesy of the media. We ALL have a lot in common. When the media stops parroting what is "right" and what is "wrong" is when we can all come together.

 

Partly, but also partly because the most stable state of a FPTP voting system is to have two parties.

There was a research paper done on it, it's fairly solid. If you want more parties....

 

*straps proportional voting essence to a desk fan, rams it up Rebel's left nostril*

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Most countries, even parliamentary democracies, have two major parties and a host of smaller ones. FPTP systems certainly help to reinforce this, but I think it's just human nature to divide into Us and Them.

 

But I disagree with Thrash. I think we don't have that much in common. I think that's the problem. The United States is coalescing into two culturally and politically distinct entities. The media is not the cause, it is just a symptom. And I don't think it's going to get better.

[Thrash]

But I disagree with Thrash. I think we don't have that much in common. I think that's the problem. The United States is coalescing into two culturally and politically distinct entities. The media is not the cause, it is just a symptom. And I don't think it's going to get better.

 

Wrong. The oligarchy is the problem. Each side has different ways to deal with it, the left wants to preserve it with promises, the right wants to get rid of it with promises. The normal people both want it gone. The oligarchy wants us at odds with eachother, that's what keeps them in power. Now that we truly have an outsider at the helm, time will tell what happens.

[the rebel]

*straps proportional voting essence to a desk fan, rams it up Rebel's left nostril*

Germany has had that for a very long time and guess how many parties have held the power? The same two.

*throws fan with the BO on in an outside bin.*

[Redezra]

Yes cause they've got a good synergy going, and everyone likes them.

 

You know what else they have in government? Other voices. In the US, all I see are republicans and democrats. There aren't any libertarians in senate. There aren't any greens in the house. That's not a problem in Germany.

 

Face it, you want to live in an old, broken, backwards system for whatever reason. You don't want to have a better government, you just want a shit one that does what you want.

[Learz]

Yes cause they've got a good synergy going, and everyone likes them.

 

You know what else they have in government? Other voices. In the US, all I see are republicans and democrats. There aren't any libertarians in senate. There aren't any greens in the house. That's not a problem in Germany.

 

Face it, you want to live in an old, broken, backwards system for whatever reason. You don't want to have a better government, you just want a shit one that does what you want.

 

Well, to be fair, America's old, broken, backwards system has accomplished more in the past 100 years than the rest of the world combined

 

European style systems tend to be weaker but allow for a more inclusive government. While this benefits minor groups and third parties, it comes at a sacrifice of efficiency and power. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but just providing perspective.

 

This is also a cultural thing. For example, the scene of a car crash. In America, first responders will show up, and someone will take command of the situation. That person will then run the situation giving orders until someone more qualified (or powerful) arrives, and then that person takes over the situation. In Europe, first responders arrive, and they will collectively discuss the best path forward. Once agreed, they will separate and accomplish their individual tasks, occasionally regrouping when others arrive and to make further decisions.

 

America's system allows for immediate action and fast results. Europe's system allows for broader perspectives and more input. America's system also means it can go very badly very quickly if the wrong person ends up in charge. Europe's system allows for critical information to get buried in meaningless data, and has slower responses.

 

In terms of governance, America's system provides strong, fast results at the exclusion of minor players. Europe's system provides inclusion of minor players with weaker, slower results. And honestly, it's going to stay this way in America for a looooooooooong time, for alot of different reasons.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Every European country does ambulances differently, Learz. In the UK they are more like here — stow and go, with a hierarchical collective command structure like Americans use. France is more like you describe, except that some ambulances have a physician; they attempt to stabilize at the scene, then transport. I don't know about Italy, but I'm betting it's a disorganized shitshow. Germans tend to do things in a more uniform, hierarchical manner (surprise!); I don't know if they stabilize at the scene or "stow and go," but my guess would be the latter. Germans are nothing if not efficient, after all.

 

I wonder what they do in Japan?

[Redezra]

Yes cause they've got a good synergy going, and everyone likes them.

 

You know what else they have in government? Other voices. In the US, all I see are republicans and democrats. There aren't any libertarians in senate. There aren't any greens in the house. That's not a problem in Germany.

 

Face it, you want to live in an old, broken, backwards system for whatever reason. You don't want to have a better government, you just want a shit one that does what you want.

 

Well, to be fair, America's old, broken, backwards system has accomplished more in the past 100 years than the rest of the world combined

 

European style systems tend to be weaker but allow for a more inclusive government. While this benefits minor groups and third parties, it comes at a sacrifice of efficiency and power. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but just providing perspective.

 

This is also a cultural thing. For example, the scene of a car crash. In America, first responders will show up, and someone will take command of the situation. That person will then run the situation giving orders until someone more qualified (or powerful) arrives, and then that person takes over the situation. In Europe, first responders arrive, and they will collectively discuss the best path forward. Once agreed, they will separate and accomplish their individual tasks, occasionally regrouping when others arrive and to make further decisions.

 

America's system allows for immediate action and fast results. Europe's system allows for broader perspectives and more input. America's system also means it can go very badly very quickly if the wrong person ends up in charge. Europe's system allows for critical information to get buried in meaningless data, and has slower responses.

 

In terms of governance, America's system provides strong, fast results at the exclusion of minor players. Europe's system provides inclusion of minor players with weaker, slower results. And honestly, it's going to stay this way in America for a looooooooooong time, for alot of different reasons.

 

Hi

 

Uh yeah, just an FYI, Germany's current system has only existed since after the end of the cold war. That's about 25-30 years.

And uh, yeah they've moved from coal to nuclear, then from nuclear to hybrid renewable/coal, and now to renewable in that time. And that's just their energy policy.

 

The US system sucks ass and you know it.

[Learz]

American energy generation.
Germany energy generation.
Australia energy generation.
Britain energy generation.
 
So, given that Australia and Britain are closer to Germany government-wise, what explains the differences? Or is it possible that energy production within a country isn't linked to a particular form of government?
 
 
 

Every European country does ambulances differently, Learz. In the UK they are more like here — stow and go, with a hierarchical collective command structure like Americans use. France is more like you describe, except that some ambulances have a physician; they attempt to stabilize at the scene, then transport. I don't know about Italy, but I'm betting it's a disorganized shitshow. Germans tend to do things in a more uniform, hierarchical manner (surprise!); I don't know if they stabilize at the scene or "stow and go," but my guess would be the latter. Germans are nothing if not efficient, after all.

I wonder what they do in Japan?

I can't speak to Japan unfortunately, I've only done the trainings for NA and Europe. I'm not sure how the ambulance side of it works, but in crash rescue and recovery efforts, there is a clear distinction between how Americans do it and how Europeans do it (at least from what I've seen). Just my two cents.

[Redezra]

Britain is closer to the US than Germany.

 

Australia's government policy is set by the lower house, biasing our system toward similar problems as the USA.

 

Try New Zealand. Try Switzerland.