65 replies to this topic

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

How was there not already a thread on this? Sheesh. I'm away a few weeks and the place goes to hell.

 

It should go without saying that this post contains spoilers. But just to make it official I will say it in a big, bold font:

 

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT!

 

There. You have been warned.

 

Seriously, though, if you have not seen The Force Returns and intend to do so, don't be surprised if what you read here spoils it for you. That's why they call them "spoilers."

 

Now, with that out of the way...

 

I thought the film was fantastic. I have seen it three times now, and each time I find new cool things to love. I really love that the movie returns to classic Star Wars norm in terms of storytelling, i.e. giving out details of the larger story through action and tantalizing snippets of dialog. One of the greatest weaknesses of the Prequels were their tendency to sink into tedious back story. Hints, people, All we need are hints. The imagination will do the rest. Trust me, the Clone Wars seemed a lot cooler before we found out what they actually were, when all we had was the name... That's classic Star wars storytelling, part soap opera, part old-time adventure serial, and it has been sorely lacking.

 

Perhaps the greatest compliment I can pay to The Force Returns is that it feels like Star Wars to me. I could not say that about the Prequels. Oh, they had their moments. The fight in the arena, for example, was a very classic Star Wars moment — advancing the plot through action. But overall the Prequels were disappointing to fans of the classic films. I am fully aware that there is an entire generation of individuals for whom the Prequels and subsequent materials (animated series, etc.) are Star Wars; when they watch the classic trilogy they say the action seems slow. And it's true. Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader fight like a couple of old men compared to the amazing feats of Force manipulation we witness in the Prequels.

The Force Awakens addresses that discrepancy by not addressing it. Kylo Ren, while awesomely powerful with the Force, is never shown to be as acrobatic as the Jedi and other Force users from the Prequels and related materials. Instead his use of the Force is brutal, like a hammer, smashing all before it. He is rage personified, in a way that Anakin Skywalker should have been. Indeed, Adam Driver's portrayal of Kylo Ren might be thought of as the Anakin Skywalker That Might Have Been. Perhaps it comes down to the actor. Adam Driver does a lot with a look or an expression. Hayden Christiansen was a little wooden, to be polite. Regardless, Driver nails it, showing the Dark Side of the Force as it should be. Of course a Dark Side user would throw a hissyfit when things don't go their way; self-control is a Jedi virtue. Ben Solo/Kylo Ren was clearly shown to be torn between the Dark Side and the Light, with hints suggesting that Ren saw it more like something akin to Order vs. Chaos. But tidbits, only tidbits. And Driver manages to do it without going all emo like another Dark Side apprentice in the family.

 

So much awesome shit. Consider:

 

• The Knights of Ren. At one point in their communication Snoke refers to Kylo Ren as "Master of the Knights of Ren." What does that mean? Are there other members of this order? It seems pointless to be master of an order of knights of there are no actual knights to be master of. So does that mean there are other Dark Side warriors like Kylo Ren? Note that The Force Awakens assiduously avoids describing Kylo Ren or Snoke as "Sith." In fact, the only time the word is referenced is in a speech by Maz Kanata when she references them as something separate from the First Order. If they are not Sith, the fabled and fan-embraced "Rule of Two" would no longer be in effect. In other words, whatever Kylo Ren and Snoke are, there may be more of them.
• Who is Rey? The fact that the entire plot revolves around her would seem to suggest that she is someone important. Obviously she is strong with the Force. Duh. She knocked Kylo Ren on his ass with nothing more than instinct and whatever she gleaned from her little mind-meld with him earlier. But is she a Skywalker? By which I mean a descendant of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader? I think she must be. All the signs are there. Her journey, from obscure desert world to galactic chosen one, mimics the journeys of Anakin and Luke. She is a great pilot. The Skywalker lightsaber calls out to her. Leia immediately embraces her and sends her on an important mission to find Luke. Hell, the "Skywalker" incidental music plays practically every time she's onscreen. They couldn't be telegraphing it any more clearly: Rey is a Skywalker. The question is how? More on that later.
• The fact that Leia is no longer Princess but General, tough and battle-hardened. This is the same woman who saw her entire planet destroyed right before her eyes, after all. It stands to reason she might have some issues around that. Nevertheless, I love the portrayal of her going back to "the one thing I was ever good at."
• Who is Lor San Tekka? That's the old guy at the beginning, played by Max Von Sydow, the one who gives the map to Poe. When he meets Kylo Ren it is clear that he knows who he (Ren) is and what happened, and he did not appear to be afraid of him. He is described in the opening crawl as "an old friend" of the Resistance, i.e. Leia. What was he doing on Jakku? Was he there to watch over Rey from a distance, once as Ben Kenobi did for Luke? These tie in to theories about Rey's origins, and are best left for elsewhere. But you see all the layers of intrigue that can be added by the revelation of just a tiny bit of information? NERD GOOD TIMES, THAT'S WHAT.

 

I had high hopes for The Force Awakens, and this film met or exceeded just about every one of them. It's really hard to find anything wrong with it. Okay, the monsters that Han and Chewy were hauling were a bit silly looking (they should have been Rancors, many fans say). But it was kept under control and to a minimum and, overall, it worked. The new characters are likable and badass at the same time, just as their forebears were, and they slot nicely into the Star Wars mythos, now much expanded.

Watching this film was a joyful experience, rebooting the classic Star Wars magic in a way that will appeal to classic fans and new audiences. If I were giving out tokens of my approval (thumbs-up, stars, etc.), I would give Star Wars: The Force Awakens the maximum number of them allowed. My regular readers would know how rare that is. In the hypothetical universe where I write movie reviews.

Also I got word today that my custom lightsabers will be here in a week, much earlier than originally forecast (I wasn't expecting to see them until March). Clearly the Force is with me.

[the rebel]

I believe someone I think Red started a star wars topic in the geek room

[Lord Draculea]

Yeah, that's what I was about to say too, but the rebel was faster. 

[King Biscuit]

The only issue I have with E7 is Starkiller Base.

Little is said on it, it's power source is fairly ridiculous, we get very few details on what it destroyed(after 2 viewings, I had to wookieepedia it), and my biggest issue with it, exactly ZERO tension provided by it.

DS 1 + 2, there was a sense of urgency behind destroying them, and, the battles that lead to their destruction was the high point of 4 + 6.

Starkiller just felt kinda shoehorned to me, and, another of many maguffins + plot devices that exist purely to bring the principals together (Han's death, Rey schooling Ren, etc.).

Beyond that, I was quite happy with it.

Tre excited for Episode Eight. 

Only 2 years to go...

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Stakiller Base was a maguffin. Obviously, it was meant as an homage to the Death Star(s). But more importantly, it also reinforces the idea that evil always thinks it can solve everything with a bigger gun. I agree it was a bit silly, bit it was not meant to be overthought. If you really start thinking about the Death Star it quickly becomes silly as well. The Force Awakens even gives a nod to the silliness of it all when the main characters discuss their plan of attack, and the whole there's-always-something-to-blow-up philosophy.

 

I love that they don't give you much detail about the balance of power in the galaxy, but based on the dialog it seems that some portion of the galaxy consists of the New Republic, founded some time after the events of RoTJ. Another portion of the galaxy is controlled by the First Order, a kind of rump Empire. But what is the distribution? Both sides seem to have impressive military resources at their disposal. Building Starkiller Base can't have been cheap. It seems safe to assume that there was a rough balance of power between the sides before Starkiller Base came along, as the plot made it clear that the existence of such a weapon would change things, i.e. alter the balance of power. But it's all surmission and geekery. Lord how I love it.

 

Another question is what exactly is the Resistance? Is it the official military of the New Republic? Or is the Resistance a separate, independent fighting force, perhaps consisting of fighters from First Order-controlled territories, that is only funded and supported by the New Republic? It was never entirely clear.

 

And then there's Luke, just standin' there lookin' at the ocean and thinkin' about what a fuckup he's been...

[The Dark Empire]

My biggest question is who is the supreme leader. My instincts tell me it could be sideous in a different vessel or maybe someone who was more powerful than sideous. Whoever he is he obviously is incredibly powerful and well versed in the dark side of the force (how else could he lure Kylo Ren to the darkside). The rule of two confuddles things because how was this character able to exist in secret and become so powerful. Was he someon's master, someone thought to be dead but was still alive in secret, a secret apprentice of Vader? The next movie will definitely reveal more but it is fun to speculate now.

 

In prequel trilogy chancellor Palpatine mentions to Anakin about a sith lord being able to save someone he loved from death but was killed in his sleep by his apprentice. Perhaps this person survived and went into hiding to heal and become stronger. Perhaps once the Empire collapsed and Vader and Sideous died this mysterious sith lord could finally make his return. That's just my theory

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

The Clone Wars and other supplementary materials dating from the Prequel era have gotten around the Rule of two by adhering to the letter of the law, if not the spirit. There can only ever be two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice. But there are others capable of using the Force beyond the dogma of the Sith and Jedi. Or they skirt the issue by having one of the main villains of Clone Wars called a Sith Assassin, not Lord (in fact it was her fondest wish to become a Sith Lord). And so on. The point is that there are any number of ways to fudge the Rule of Two even staying within established canon. The Force Awakens makes a point of not calling them Sith, they are something else.

 

I would be disappointed if Snoke turned out to be Palpatine/Sidious. There has also been talk that he is Darth Plagueis, Palpatine's former master.

[Octavian]

Thanks for the massive spoiler warning.

 

I have yet to see it, so I stopped at that point

 

I shall now avoid this thread

[King Biscuit]

From what I gathered, The New Republic was founded post RoTJ. The Resistance is a proxy of TNR. As with the Old Republic, I'm sure things got weighed down in commitee, so Leia & Co said fuck it, we will act where TNR can't or won't.
Space Hezbolla.

[Justavictim82]

No development of the planets hurt me. Having no mention of the planets that were destroyed's names or any connection to me was incredibly weak. With Alderaan, the suspense was Leia watching her childhood home and foster parents destroyed instantaneously by the Death Star. The worlds destroyef in The Force Awakened gave no emotional attachment or even a name to which why we should care. I also agree with KB. If the First Order was building a weapon into a planet that could drain the power of a sun and destroy multiple planets, how could both the Resistance and the New Republic be so oblivious to its existence? Also for Jakku... why were there destroyed Star Destroyers just laying around ready to be salvaged and why wasn't the First Order involved with said salvage? I would think they would want their property back yes? Also when it comes to Jakku: why would the First Order care or even have a significant presence on Jakku for being a back woods Outer Rim planet?

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

The planets destroyed were the Hosnian system. This was clearly (if briefly) stated in the film. But you're right that there was no emotional attachment to them. In the words of Grand Moff Tarkin, "Dantooine is far too remote to make an effective demonstration." They should have made it a known planet, maybe Naboo (no more Gungans!). But bear in mind that the whole Starkiller Base plotline was just a big maguffin to get the characters together.

 

There were crashed Star Destroyers on Jakku because a massive space battle was fought there at some point, presumably in the aftermath of RoTJ and the birth of the New Republic. Since Rey is hidden there (and "old friend" to the Resistance Lor San Tekka apparently lives there), it is probably safe to assume that Jakku is not within the First Order's regular territory, but that they can extend military force there when they need to, like when they are looking for something. Sort of like the Empire's relationship with Tatooine. As for salvaging the Star Destroyers, there could be any number of answers to your questions. How do you know the First Order wasn't involved with salvaging them at some point? Maybe they already got what they wanted. Or maybe there was never anything there worth salvaging, at least not to an organization so large. Rey appeared to be living off the scraps.

 

Finally, in reference to the New Republic not knowing about Starkiller Base — why would they? It's a big galaxy. The Star Wars universe does not seem to possess anything akin to "long range sensors" they way Star Trek does. Hell, once a ship has jumped to lightspeed there's no way to even tell where it went unless a tracker has been placed aboard. The Empire managed to build not one but TWO Death Stars in secret. Why couldn't the First Order build a superweapon on some remote planet under their control?

(Something like Starkiller Base would take a very long time to build. Assuming that the First Order has spent some portion of the previous thirty years establishing itself and consolidating its power, there was probably some period of time during which they were not in a position to undertake such a project. Possibly planning or even construction had already begun under the Empire, and the First Order merely finished it.)

[Justavictim82]

I missed the part of the Hosnian system being destroyed so my apologizes there. Still I wonder why the New Republic would base their operations there as opposed to Corusant?

 

Maybe the First Order salvaged but again no explanation was to why they were there in the first place. It could have been a battle there but again why was Rey stashed there if Luke (who is her father presumably) would stash her in such plain sight? As far as Lor San Tekka is concerned, the theory is that he is actually Wedge Antilles under an assumed identity like that of "Old Ben" Kenobi.

 

As far as the Star Killer base goes... how would the Republic/First Order not know? That type of undertaking still requires a lot of workers. A lot of workers leads to believe that the construction could not have been possibly kept a complete secret. Sorry but in the TNR/Resistance's case, even a murmur of said base being built would spur me to exhaust every possible resource available to make sure that it was a rumor. Especially considering the 2 Death Stars. Is said lack of information possible? Of course but highly unlikely.

[King Biscuit]

I missed the part of the Hosnian system being destroyed so my apologizes there. Still I wonder why the New Republic would base their operations there as opposed to Corusant?

 

Maybe the First Order salvaged but again no explanation was to why they were there in the first place. It could have been a battle there but again why was Rey stashed there if Luke (who is her father presumably) would stash her in such plain sight? As far as Lor San Tekka is concerned, the theory is that he is actually Wedge Antilles under an assumed identity like that of "Old Ben" Kenobi.

 

As far as the Star Killer base goes... how would the Republic/First Order not know? That type of undertaking still requires a lot of workers. A lot of workers leads to believe that the construction could not have been possibly kept a complete secret. Sorry but in the TNR/Resistance's case, even a murmur of said base being built would spur me to exhaust every possible resource available to make sure that it was a rumor. Especially considering the 2 Death Stars. Is said lack of information possible? Of course but highly unlikely.

 

Corusant, being the titular seat of Imperial power, probably left a bad taste in most species' mouths.

In the now defunked EU, specifically Heir to The Empire, TNR did re-establish the capitol on Corusant.

There were surveillance bugs everywhere, and the rump Empire used them to great advantage until they were sniffed out.

So in the new canon, maybe they were paranoid about such a thing, along with everyone thinking Corusant = Empire = Palpatine.

 

Now think back to the shit-storm known as 1-3.

Anakin was from Tatooine, and had returned there at least once.

Luke himself was stashed there, along with obvious Jedi in hiding Obi-wan.

He was not found out for 18 years.

 

So maybe Luke took that same queue?

 

Wedge is the fucking man, and I hope it was him.

 

I think Resistance intel could very well be pretty shitty on anyting happening deep in FO territory.

They are basically the remainder of the Imperial Fleet & Command structure. Whatever systems they call home, is Fort Knox with Quad Laser & Ion Cannons.

Oh, and oodles of Star Destroyers.

And drones.

SPAI DRONES EVERYWHERE.

Good luck getting any amount of Bothans on the inside.

 

Fuck, do I love conjecture!

[He who posts]

 

I like startrek

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Maybe Coruscant is not a member of the New Republic. Or perhaps it was heavily damaged or destroyed. It would have been home to a lot of Imperial sympathizers, after all. At any rate Hosnian Prime was the New Republic's capital. Keyword: was. Again, if it had been up to me it would have been a world with more resonance for the fans, like Naboo or Yavin.

 

UPDATE: Now that I have actually read the hyperlink above all the way through, I see that the location of the Senate/capital rotates in the New Republic, based on what planet had been elected. Sort of like the European Union presidency. So there you go.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Also, I'm not sure why Justa is so hung up needing to know how the Star Destroyer wreck got on Jakku. What difference does it make? It's there; read into it what you will. That's exactly the kind of detail that we don't need to know, and frankly filling in all those blanks for us is where the prequels went wrong. I like that they don't explain everything.

 

I'm more interested in why they introduced the new world of Jakku when Tatooine would have not only served the same purpose, but given everyone the warm and fuzzies.

[Justavictim82]

Also, I'm not sure why Justa is so hung up needing to know how the Star Destroyer wreck got on Jakku. What difference does it make? It's there; read into it what you will. That's exactly the kind of detail that we don't need to know, and frankly filling in all those blanks for us is where the prequels went wrong. I like that they don't explain everything.

I'm more interested in why they introduced the new world of Jakku when Tatooine would have not only served the same purpose, but given everyone the warm and fuzzies.

Its a giant hole in the story. The movie starts there and thatcis a major plot point to me. Call me crazy but I like a little back story.

Jakku as a new planet was fine but it being a remote desert planet felt cheap as if it was a rehash. There is SO much better ideas where they could have went here.

[The Dark Empire]

Forgot to mention this before but when Kylo Ren did the force mind reading on Rey he said I can see an ocean and an island. Then boom end of the movie she is on an island in an ocean. Rey must be from that planet and if Luke is her father it makes sense that he would wait for her there. I have a theory that Luke hid her after the Kylo Ren incident partly because he was so afraid he would fail her as he failed Kylo Ren and it would be better for the galaxy if she was never exposed to the force and the jedi. But it happens anyway and that is why luke looks shocked at the end when the two finally meet or reunite

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

You're crazy, Justa. The history of a crashed Star Destroyer is not a hole in the story. It's just neat background color. You probably flip to the end, too, don't you? You can admit it. This is a safe place.

 

I don't think Rey is Luke's. It seems unlikely that he'd become romantically attached after what happened with Dad. More likely she is another Han/Leia offspring. My theory is that Han never even knew about her, she was born after he and Leia split. She never told him, and after what happened with Ben she sent Rey away to hide her. She seemed awfully quick to accept this newcomer and send her on a vital mission, after all.

[The Dark Empire]

It could make sense but people would have noticed and someone would say Leia where did the baby go. I doubt she disappeared for a year and had a baby in secret. Then again it could be a big reveal which is probably what they are going for so who knows