70 replies to this topic

[Redezra]

Mnyaaaah A powerful being is not a god per se. Like the Aztecs thought the spanish were gods. But they weren't. A God means some super-entity. It in some way owns the universe, it isn't a part of it.

If it's not that... it's not a god.

[Redezra]

It's like this. If someone asked you to wait at a bench until you return how long would you wait? That is the question of religion. We wait and we wait for the return of Christ and sometimes we grow tired of waiting. But there are some of us who still wait. They wait in the pouring rain and in the blistering sun. They wait until they die. Now for some that is a pitiful existence. But it is not as simple as that. You wait by living. Live your life according to ten simple rules to keep you good and that's all you need to do. That and believe that someone will return like they said. It is very difficult to keep waiting especially when so many people have stopped.

Ancient aliens theory is a little far fetched but some believe it is possible. But has there been enough time thus far?

Yeah, that's the problem. It actually breaks my heart to watch people wait for something that to me is so obviously made up by people who want you on that bench for their own ends.

That's why I am so strong on the "Jesus was never real" thing. The data for it is strong, and if that could become the mainstream view, it would blow the whole thing open... nobody ever asked you to be on the bench, you've been tricked. And millions, billions of people have died waiting as part of the cruelest, most long running prank in the history of mankind.

And millions more will die unless we do something.

[Learz]

Mnyaaaah A powerful being is not a god per se. Like the Aztecs thought the spanish were gods. But they weren't. A God means some super-entity. It in some way owns the universe, it isn't a part of it.

If it's not that... it's not a god.

One step at a time

So, given that we have a rough proof for the existence of a god, do you think it would be possible for that god to be the God, with the six characteristics?
EDIT: If not, then how many characteristics would it have?

Given what we're working with here (technology basis), our hypothetical god would no doubt be all-knowing, all-powerful, and omnipresent. The remaining three characteristics pose harder challenges.
I'm going to cheat and say it's all-good by claiming Singularity and/or an AI.

Anyone want to try for infinite or unchanging?

[Redezra]

I'm still countering by saying "It's a part of the universe."

[Alyster]

Perhaps not a supreme being, but a superior one?

That sums up your post and my thoughts about it.

God is metaphysical. Aliens would be physical and thus it's all according to science. Nothing divine here.

[Redezra]

Perhaps not a supreme being, but a superior one?

That sums up your post and my thoughts about it.

God is metaphysical. Aliens would be physical and thus it's all according to science. Nothing divine here.

Yus.

[The Dark Empire]

It's like this. If someone asked you to wait at a bench until you return how long would you wait? That is the question of religion. We wait and we wait for the return of Christ and sometimes we grow tired of waiting. But there are some of us who still wait. They wait in the pouring rain and in the blistering sun. They wait until they die. Now for some that is a pitiful existence. But it is not as simple as that. You wait by living. Live your life according to ten simple rules to keep you good and that's all you need to do. That and believe that someone will return like they said. It is very difficult to keep waiting especially when so many people have stopped.

Ancient aliens theory is a little far fetched but some believe it is possible. But has there been enough time thus far?

Yeah, that's the problem. It actually breaks my heart to watch people wait for something that to me is so obviously made up by people who want you on that bench for their own ends.

That's why I am so strong on the "Jesus was never real" thing. The data for it is strong, and if that could become the mainstream view, it would blow the whole thing open... nobody ever asked you to be on the bench, you've been tricked. And millions, billions of people have died waiting as part of the cruelest, most long running prank in the history of mankind.

And millions more will die unless we do something.

We wait because we want to though. And that was a metaphor. No one is really sitting and not doing anything. I'm kind of using the Doctor Who thing as my metaphor. You can live like anyone else but still believe in God is my point.

[Learz]

I'm still countering by saying "It's a part of the universe."

Gaia

Perhaps not a supreme being, but a superior one?

That sums up your post and my thoughts about it.

God is metaphysical. Aliens would be physical and thus it's all according to science. Nothing divine here.

Side note, metaphysical simply means beyond physics. I think you mean nonphysical.

But, for both of you, assuming time is infinite and technology never hits a ceiling... wouldn't it be possible that at some point, this superior being simply becomes the universe? If you have complete control (all-powerful) and full knowledge (all-knowing), it would be easy to reform the universe, or even create another one. It would also logically be possible to become the universe, and be one with it.

This solves the infinite characteristic. Our hypothetical God is now everywhere, and has transcended the physical realm. It IS the physical realm.

Now how to get around unchanging...

[Alyster]

Learz have you ever been a fan of Stargete SG1? The ancients =/= gods. And the goa'uld are only false gods

Edited by Алйстьер, 09 January 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Redezra]

And the Ori are freaking scary.

The only way a species could be gods would be if they created a universe.

[Learz]

Learz have you ever been a fan of Stargete SG1? The ancients =/= gods. And the goa'uld are only falsee gods

Watched it twice
And SG Universe sucked balls.

But I'm not trying to prove that god exists. I'm only showing that it is possible for a being with the characteristics of God to exist. And this God would appear to be very similar to the Judeo-Christian God. Again, playing angelic advocate here

[Learz]

The only way a species could be gods would be if they created a universe.

But we've established that time is infinite and tech increases. So it would be possible for a species to create a universe, and hence be gods

[Redezra]

Technically, yes.


But this opens up a huge can of recursive universe worms.

[Alyster]

Don't get me back to the virgin birth thing. That just cracks me up. You know what I said about that already.

There is no reason to believe there is a Judo-Christian God. Religion in that era was often a way to control the society like we do nowadays with non religious laws. For example according to Christianity if your daughter gets raped you have to marry her to the man who raped her. In return he'll give you some earthly goods. By today's standards it's something completely surreal, 2000 years ago it was the only way how to save your daughter.

Truth is many of the religious laws were just simple ways to keep your society intact and working 2000 years ago. There's nothing divine about it. Just making them sound divine gave them more effect. Sooo you just had to invent a nice story to go along them.

Edited by Алйстьер, 09 January 2013 - 09:39 PM.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

As some of you know, I have been thinking a lot lately about our perception of time. In another thread I quoted Doctor Who when I referred to time as a "bowl of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff," but that's not so far off. Time's arrow is merely our perception of reality, in truth past, present and future all exist simultaneously. I'll wait a moment while you pick up the pieces of your blown mind.

I think that at the moment we die (or technically the moment just before we die), our brain's perception of time effectively shuts off. Perhaps this is an automatic response to the physiological act of the brain shutting down. Or perhaps it is a protective response -- the brain cannot conceive of its own non-existence, and so takes whatever steps it needs to take to ensure that the observer never stops observing (thank you for that phrase, by the way, Redezra). Either way, the net result is to free the consciousness to exist in a dream world of its own creation. Think of it like entering the Nexus from Star Trek: Generations. Perhaps you would relive the time in your life when you were happiest, perhaps you would live out a fantasy, or (to my way of thinking most likely) you would live out some amalgamation of the two -- your own life, but better. You 2.0. Heh.

And some people -- a lot of people, probably -- would go to "Heaven," however they conceive it. So maybe God does exist, in a way, within the universe we ourselves create from our subconscious.

So, to sum up: When you die you go to the Nexus, and if you believe in God you'll probably see Him there.

[Learz]

Technically, yes.


But this opens up a huge can of recursive universe worms.

Doesn't matter As long as there is the possibility, we're good to go!

As to unchanging, that's a slight problem. And given that our hypotehtical god is all-good, he wouldn't be able to lie about it.
I honestly can't remember the solution to that one, so I'm going to cheat again and use control of time and/or parallel universes to solve this. Bite me.

So, basically, we have the possibility that a god exists, and that he has the six defining characteristics of a God. Therefore, our god is God.
Is our God now the Judeo-Christian God (JCGOD)? They have the same characteristics and abilities (specifically, all-good).
Is it that far of a stretch to say that God is one who created us, or protects us? One that attempted to give us guidance? One that was perhaps mistranslated, misunderstood, or selectively ignored by humans?
In other words, there is a possibility that God is JCGOD. But not the JCGOD we know (or that the Catholic Church believes, or the Westboro baptists believe). The actual JCGOD is one that loves us and wants to help us grow and get to know him.

No, I don't know how Christ would fit into that, or the prophets. Or the 10 commandments.

But the point of this whole exercise is that, yes, it is, in fact, possible not only for a god to exist, but for a God to exist with the same characteristics of the JCGOD. Possible, even if a tiny, remote, and almost nonexistent possibility -- but still possible.

[Redezra]

Actually, it's impossible. Because evil exists.

[Alyster]

Learz, putting up an hypothesis that humans are capable of developing to a level where we can artificially create life doesn't mean it was done before with us. You're claiming we could be able to develop to god like beings and then jump back in time to our creation with JCGOD.

That however takes us back to square one. Does God exist?

You're just putting up an hypothesis about our future development.

Edited by Алйстьер, 09 January 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[Learz]

Learz, putting up an hypothesis that humans are capable of developing to a level where we can artificially create life doesn't mean it was done before with us. You're claiming we could be able to develop to god like beings and then jump back in time to our creation with JCGOD.

That however takes us back to square one. Does God exist?

You're just putting up an hypothesis about our future development.

Time is infinite. So it's possible.
I'm playing with possibility. End result, no matter what, is that it's possible a god exists, and maybe a God.
Heck, according to the Big Bang, in the beginning there was nothing, and then nothing exploded. But it's equally as possible that a god was created in the Big Bang along with the universe.

Actually, it's impossible. Because evil exists.

That drops us from God to god.
I'll make the argument that God cannot be good without evil existing. Else, how would he be good? If there was no evil, then there would be no good, and so God wouldn't be good. He would just be. If anything, the existence of evil supports the possibility of God's existence.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

We could become pan-dimensional beings, like white mice.