70 replies to this topic

[Redezra]

If he was infinitely good and infinitely knowing and infinitely powerful, it logically follows that he would have to intervene when something he loves so much is attacked by such evil. Given he does not, and is infinitely powerful, knowing etc, he is either complicit, or uncaring. Therefore the only god in these terms would be evil, or indifferent.

However, we can find no evidence, ever, of any Gods interfering anywhere, ever. This confines us back to a Deistic god, who created and didn't touch. However given the fact that cosmology believes we are in a nil energy universe, it is highly likely that we weren't created either.

So, where does that leave us? Some guy sitting outside a simulator that randomly produces a universe at a randomly defined time.


Other circumstantial evidence is the incredibly huge lethality rating for human life. If the universe was created, it was not created for us, nor is it being changed for us. There is also the fact that there is no order in the universe. Like, at all. There are some very strange basic rules, but heck, it's weird, crazy even.

[Alyster]

If he was infinitely good and infinitely knowing and infinitely powerful, it logically follows that he would have to intervene when something he loves so much is attacked by such evil. Given he does not, and is infinitely powerful, knowing etc, he is either complicit, or uncaring. Therefore the only god in these terms would be evil, or indifferent.

God and good. I lol'ed.

Lets for a second pretend that JCGOD exists. Why did he reveal himself in Palestine to the jews? There were literally millions of people in Asia far more developed at the time. Yet JCGOD left them in isolation. For 1500 years these people had no chance of being saved and getting into heaven. That's cruel.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Maybe he's a dick. Maybe there are lots of incredibly powerful, Q-like beings in the universe, and maybe one decided to manifest on Earth in Palestine at that time and everything in the Bible literally happened. I don't know why everyone assumes the giant voice in the sky is necessarily telling them the truth.

There are lots of gods. Side note: The real Thor is an ass.

[Redezra]

I think you mean.... AWESOME

[Phate]

I have a couple books on Norse Mythology that are extremely interesting. I think if anyone got it right, they did. Or maybe the greek.

[Learz]

If he was infinitely good and infinitely knowing and infinitely powerful, it logically follows that he would have to intervene when something he loves so much is attacked by such evil. Given he does not, and is infinitely powerful, knowing etc, he is either complicit, or uncaring. Therefore the only god in these terms would be evil, or indifferent.

However, we can find no evidence, ever, of any Gods interfering anywhere, ever. This confines us back to a Deistic god, who created and didn't touch. However given the fact that cosmology believes we are in a nil energy universe, it is highly likely that we weren't created either.

So, where does that leave us? Some guy sitting outside a simulator that randomly produces a universe at a randomly defined time.


Other circumstantial evidence is the incredibly huge lethality rating for human life. If the universe was created, it was not created for us, nor is it being changed for us. There is also the fact that there is no order in the universe. Like, at all. There are some very strange basic rules, but heck, it's weird, crazy even.

To your first point, there's an excellent passage in the book Traitor that fits nicely:

Spoiler

"When I was very young... younger than you, little Solo--I came upon a ringed moon shadowmoth at the end of its metamorphosis, still within its cocoon, " she said distantly, a little sadly. "I had already some touch with the Force; I could feel the shadowmoth's pain, its panic, its claustrophobia, its hopelessly desperate struggle to free itself.
It was as though this particular shadowmoth knew I was beside it, and screamed out to me for help. How could I refuse? Shadowmoth cocoons are polychained silicates--very, very tough--and shadowmoths are so delicate, so beautiful: gentle creature whose only purpose is to sing to the night sky. So I gave it what I think you mean by help: I used a small utility cutter to slice the cocoon, to help the shadowmoth get out."

"Oh, you didn't, did you? Please say you didn't." Jacen let his eyes drift closed, sorry already, for how he knew this story would end.
He'd had a shadowmoth in his collection for a short time; he remembered watching the larva grow, feeling its happy satisfaction through his empathic talent as it fed on stripped insulation and crumbled duracrete; he remembered the young shadowmoth that had emerged, spreading its dusky, beautifully striated wings against the crystalline polymer of its viewcage; he remembered the shadowmoth's thrilling whistle of moonsong, when he had released it from its viewcage and it had soared away under the mingled glows of Coruscant's four moons.
He remembered the desperate panic that had beat in waves against him through him through the Force, the night the shadowmoth had fought free of its cocoon.

He remembered his ache to help the helpless creature--and he remembered why he hadn't.
"You can't help a shadowmoth by cutting its cocoon," he said. "It needs the effort; the struggle to break the cocoon forces ichor into its wing veins. If you cut the cocoon..."

"The shadowmoth will be crippled," Vergere finished for him solemnly.

"Yes. It was a tragic creature--never to fly, never to join its fellows in their nightdance under the moons. Even its wingflutes were stunted, and so it was as mute as it was planetbound. During that long summer, we sometimes heard moonsong through the window of my bedchamber, and from my shadowmoth I would feel always only sadness and bitter envy, that it could never soar beneath the stars, that its voice could never rise in song. I cared for it as best I could-- but the life of a shadowmoth is short, you know; they spend years and years as larvae, storing strength for one single summer of dance and song. I robbed that shadowmoth; I stole its destiny... because I helped it."

"That wasn't helping," Jacen said. "That's not what help means, either."

"No? I saw a creature in agony, crying out its terror, and I undertook to ease its pain, to assuage its fear. If that is not what you mean by help, then my command of Basic is worse than I believed."

"You didn't understand what was happening."

Vergere shrugged. "Neither did the shadowmoth. But tell me this, Jacen Solo: if I had understood what was happening--if I had known what the larva was, and what it must do, and what it must suffer, to become the glorious creature that it could become--what should I have done that you would call, in your Basic, help?"

Jacen thought for some time before answering. His Force empathy had enabled him to understand the exotic creatures in his collection with extraordinary depth and clarity; that understanding had left him with a profound respect for the intrinsic processes of nature.
"I suppose," he said slowly, "the best help you could offer would be to keep the cocoon safe. Hawk-bats hunt shadowmoth larvae, and they especially like newly cocooned pupae: that's the stage where they have the most stored fat. So I guess the best help you could offer would be to keep watch over the larva, to protect it from predators--and leave it alone to fight its own battle."

"And, perhaps," Vergere offered gently, "also to protect it from other well-intentioned folk--who might wish, in their ignorance, to `help' it with their own utility cutters."

Basically, how would we distinguish good from evil? Evil is a necessity, both for us and God.

As to God interfering and the Diestic God, you have a point there. Likewise, alyster has a point in who God revealed himself to.
But I've run out of steam for tonight
tldr; it's quite possible that a god exists. Less possible, but still possible, that a God exists. Even less possible (perhaps doubtful), that the JCGOD exists.
god with a little g = Deism. God = Theism. And JCGOD = Christianity/etc.

If you're interested in this line of arguing, there are plenty of places that take it up. But at the end of the day, there is a possibility that god/God exists. Just as there's a possibility that he does not (which is required for most religions, including Christianity).

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I think you mean.... AWESOME

Don't think I didn't see you making out with him at JC's birthday party.*

---

* The rest of you call it "Christmas"

[Redezra]

It's also incredibly irrelevant, due to the fact that all processes don't require one... It's a hopeless attempt at humanity trying to imprint itself upon the cosmos.

Essentially, it's a philosophical artefact. In real terms, it doesn't exist.

[Phate]

I wonder how Jesus feels about everyone getting his birthday wrong

[Learz]

Maybe he's a dick. Maybe there are lots of incredibly powerful, Q-like beings in the universe, and maybe one decided to manifest on Earth in Palestine at that time and everything in the Bible literally happened. I don't know why everyone assumes the giant voice in the sky is necessarily telling them the truth.

There are lots of gods. Side note: The real Thor is an ass.

Ha! Well said.
Speaking of Thor and Odin

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I wonder how Jesus feels about everyone getting his birthday wrong

Based on evidence from the Bible and other early Christian writings, Jesus' birthday would have been in May.

My birthday is in May. Coincidence? I think not.

[Imperial Sparta]

I'm only going to talk about one thing concerning on who is burdened to prove the existence of God, since I saw it earlier, and hopefully this will be my only post. Burden of proof shouldn't have to be placed solely on the one who claims an existence. I say this, because in any experiment conducted, that is not how a good experiment is run. We run experiments to disprove something. This is referred to as a null hypothesis. So in the instance of the existence of God, we wouldn't try to prove God's existence, but rather disprove it.

Logically, his existence can only be "debated." You're not going to prove or disprove his existence in this realm of existence with words. I can sit here and debate with you about the hypocrisy of vegans claiming they only eat plants, because animals are creatures that have feelings. Plants are organisms and I'm sure they have feelings too.

Through experiments, we can't prove or disprove God's existence because his existence is beyond our own plane. How could we possibly even claim we can try to disprove the existence of something when we don't even fully understand or know everything that lives on Earth. Of course, that's a double-edged sword and that statement can be directed at both sides.

Ultimately, there isn't a right and wrong side of the debate, there's an I "think" God exists and an I "think" God doesn't exist. Where we decide to place our faith on the subject is our opinion, and ours alone.

As for God's abilities, he can be all knowing, all powerful and all good at the same time. This has probably been said before, but he can be all those three things by simply sitting back and just not doing anything. Ever occur to anyone that maybe he got tired of having to clean up after humanity's constant messes while displaying his power and would rather just sit back and let his creation live their lives without divine interference. I'm sure he still gets involved in subtle ways here and there, but as for coming down from heaven and physically getting involved, doing so would destroy the entire point of faith. God doesn't prevent every bad event from happening not because he can't, or because he's evil, but because he chooses not to. If he were to try and prevent everything, then we wouldn't get to live our lives the way he ultimately intended for us. Besides, what's to say he hasn't already prevented really bad things from happening in the past that we didn't know about?

And I don't know if this has been said yet, but I'll say it before somebody brings it up if they haven't. The biggest misconception about the Devil is that people think he runs the place. The devil is not in charge of Hell, he's just Hell's most infamous prisoner. I've heard people say, "Well if Satan punishes evil doers in Hell, doesn't that make him a good guy?" It might if that were the case, but Satan and Hades are not one and the same. Hades is in charge of the underworld, Satan is just another prisoner.


Imperial Sparta

[Learz]

that's a double-edged sword

Couldn't resist

[PrinceVegeta]

Some say the only reason folks way back thought of Gods was because of extra terrestrials. ._.

I've seen too many damn documentaries about that stuff...It makes you think a lot when you try to understand and piece together all of the little puzzle pieces of historical time periods of when this or that happened.

Who knows? We could've been created by an advanced civilization. I'm pretty sure if we advanced our knowledge of Biology we could do the same. We could be a big science experiment for them. They start a civilization, watch it grow, analyze all the different things that come from each of the cultures being born. Analyze their nature, how they act amongst each other. It is something we would probably end up doing if our civilization advanced enough.

I also think if they're advanced, they've already unlocked life preserving/extension technologies, and since they didn't give them to us, means they either want us to unlock them, or we were meant to be temporary within this experiment.

But that's all theories and ideas.....Damn I wish I didn't exist. =_=

[Alyster]

Some say the only reason folks way back thought of Gods was because of extra terrestrials. ._.

I've seen too many damn documentaries about that stuff...It makes you think a lot when you try to understand and piece together all of the little puzzle pieces of historical time periods of when this or that happened.

Who knows? We could've been created by an advanced civilization. I'm pretty sure if we advanced our knowledge of Biology we could do the same. We could be a big science experiment for them. They start a civilization, watch it grow, analyze all the different things that come from each of the cultures being born. Analyze their nature, how they act amongst each other. It is something we would probably end up doing if our civilization advanced enough.

I also think if they're advanced, they've already unlocked life preserving/extension technologies, and since they didn't give them to us, means they either want us to unlock them, or we were meant to be temporary within this experiment.

But that's all theories and ideas.....Damn I wish I didn't exist. =_=

[Alyster]

Sorry PV I just couldn't resist.

[PrinceVegeta]

Yeah that's the guy who talks on it. XD

I completely forgot what the meme pertained to.

[Learz]

[Redezra]

Woah, STAHP.


Did somebody say we do experiments to disprove things?

Hell no. The null hypothesis is a clever statistical mathematical trick. You say "The status quo is the null hypothesis, and the thing I'm trying to prove is the alternate hypothesis.

The null hypothesis is always consistant of *ONLY* the things you have proven. So, it starts as "there is nothing" and works up to "There is no god"

The alternate is what you're trying to prove. If you manage to show that it's more likely (via evidencial analysis) that the null is false, you can reject the null hypothesis. You can't just accept the alternate yet, you have to prove it by finding the rest as false. So the null is "there is no god", and if you rejected it you'd have "There is at least one god" and be using "Vishna is god" or "Allah is god" as your alternates. If you could not prove any other god, then you'd accept it was likely that Jehovah/Yahweh was god, given there must be a god and it can't be x,y,z,etc.

However, there is no proof that the null hypothesis "There is no god" is untrue. We cannot reject the null hypothesis. Therefore, as far as science is concerned, there is no god.

Congratulations, using the precepts of "prove your crackpot ideas before you bring them to the table", I have logically proofed that god does not exist. Pending further data, of course. Which is why I do all these arguments.

[Phate]

Woah, STAHP.


Did somebody say we do experiments to disprove things?

Hell no. The null hypothesis is a clever statistical mathematical trick. You say "The status quo is the null hypothesis, and the thing I'm trying to prove is the alternate hypothesis.

The null hypothesis is always consistant of *ONLY* the things you have proven. So, it starts as "there is nothing" and works up to "There is no god"

The alternate is what you're trying to prove. If you manage to show that it's more likely (via evidencial analysis) that the null is false, you can reject the null hypothesis. You can't just accept the alternate yet, you have to prove it by finding the rest as false. So the null is "there is no god", and if you rejected it you'd have "There is at least one god" and be using "Vishna is god" or "Allah is god" as your alternates. If you could not prove any other god, then you'd accept it was likely that Jehovah/Yahweh was god, given there must be a god and it can't be x,y,z,etc.

However, there is no proof that the null hypothesis "There is no god" is untrue. We cannot reject the null hypothesis. Therefore, as far as science is concerned, there is no god.

Congratulations, using the precepts of "prove your crackpot ideas before you bring them to the table", I have logically proofed that god does not exist. Pending further data, of course. Which is why I do all these arguments.

As always, you have stated my thoughts more succinctly and eloquently than I could have. I'm glad you're here to argue our side