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#1 Manoka

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 05:12 AM

Common Gun Myths
Is it true that there is a place in a man's head that, if you shoot it, it will blow up?
 
 
 
It's important to understand that correlation does not imply causation. Just because two things are correlated, does not mean that there is necessarily a link between the two. The number of Christians in the world have increased since 400 years ago, as the earth's population has increased. Obviously, people would have made more towels than, as well. But does that mean that the rise of Christians lead to the rise of towels? This may seem silly or arbitrary, now, but an argument you might support may be based on this fundamental flaw, and it might not be so obvious to you, such as the number of guns per country and the rate of violence. 
 
Far more prevalent factors are associated with crime. These include poverty, general economics, law enforcement effectiveness, technological development, culture and the general presence of organized crime. The Homicide rate of the America is 16.3, and the homicide rate of Africa is 12.5, compared to 3.0 for Europe, 3.0 for the Oceania, and 2.9 for Asia. Poverty correlates directly with crime and homicide. Poverty reduces tax money, which in turn reduces law enforcement effectiveness on top of increasing desperation, which allows criminals seed in these locations, particularly organized crime, which exacerbates violence. In the U.S. nearly 48% of violent crime is caused by organized criminal organizations, who make up less than 1% of the U.S.'s population, while an untold figure after this is facilitated by illegal weapons smuggling. In some countries such as Mexico, they make up over 90%. Urbanization and poverty are in general correlated with crime. 
 
Before any key determinant can be made as to what can reduce crime, one has to first consider a myriad of factors. Gun control alone, or truly any piece of legislation, will only attack a part of the problem with crime. Laws restricting gun use may have little if any effect, in countries such as Mexico, where only 2.5 million of the 15.5 million guns are even legal, or only 13%. If the smuggling of illegal weapons persist, gun laws will have little to no effect. Island nations, such as the UK or Japan, may have greater capabilities of restricting the flow of weapons, due to the increased difficulty compared to overland routes. Nazi Germany in 1945 had high levels of crime, compared to Germany today, which has a relatively low murder rate; more people died in the holocaust than are probably going to die in Germany for the next 100 years. More people died in the clashes between the IRA, UVF, and British forces than are likely going to die from "homicide" in the UK. Countries such as Japan are notorious for under counting crimes [1][2][3], particularly homicide. Some countries, such as North Korea, have completely unusable crime statistics, while others such as China have extremely questionable statistics, and others such as Japan have fairly questionable. It's difficult to tell based on differences in recording, reporting, and definitions. In some countries, if crimes go unsolved, many are not listed. In some countries, the police lie or are generally so bad at catching criminals their crime rates appear unusually low. In others, reported rates by citizens are ignored or low due to the general lack of technology, such as phones, which makes reporting easy to do. The statistics, on paper, can only give us so much value based on their relative information. It's important to keep in mind that the statistics do not always tell the truth. 
 
 
 
Gun Physics - The ease of Use
There are of course, a lot of common myths about guns. If you shoot someone, they'll go flying backwards. If you shoot a car's engine, it will explode! Guns take no skill to use or intelligence, and make killing lots of people easier. Guns are much more deadly than other weapons, such as knives, hatchets or axes. This simply isn't the case. 
 
First of all, guns don't make people go flying backwards. They simply lack the total energy or physics. A very basic rule of thumb is that for every action, there is an equal and opposite, reaction, commonly cited as Newton's third law. Simply put, if a person goes flying backwards after being hit by a bullet, you should to, since after all, it should produce the same amount of recoil. The truth is, bullets are tiny things that travel at really high velocity in order to have sufficient penetration to get down to internal organs. They are efficient weapons, but not particularly powerful weapons. For instance, the 5.56mm, the primary cartridge used by the U.S. military and by most NATO countries, is 4.1 grams in weight. Comparatively, a penny is 2.5 grams, and a nickel is 5 grams. [1] This makes bullets relatively small. Traveling at 940 m/s, or 3100 fps, it generates roughly 1800 joules, or 1300 foot pounds, and has a momentum of 3.854. A 1 kilogram baseball bat, swung at 10 m/s, has a momentum of 10 kilogram m/s, while a bow and arrow is about 1.5-2.5, making them roughly comparable. Other than raw numbers, mythbusters showed while this resulted in little movement on episode 25 and 38; for a more accessible video, here you go! Guns simply lack the momentum to make targets go flying backwards, unless they're really small. 
 
Gasoline burns or deflagerates, it does not explode. In order to burn, it needs oxygen, and most be exposed to a sufficient heat source in order to catch gasoline on fire. Unless exposed to an open flame, gasoline won't light, especially inside of a container with little oxygen. In fact, you could heat gasoline to 1000 degrees in a vacuum, or in space, and it would never burn, not once. Without oxygen, combustion is impossible, and a bullet doesn't have the temperature to light gasoline on fire past it's flash point, or about 280 °C (536 °F). Even if it did, gasoline would only burn, like this. A pretty uneventful video, but I hope the point is made; your care won't be "exploding" any time soon. 
 
Here's a video of a human skull replica being shot! Here's a video of it being hit by a baseball bat and a sword. Here's some sword, an axe, etc. The point is, these other weapons produce just as much or the same catastrophic injuries. A bullet might poke a smoke hole in you, while an axe might cleave you in half, destroying an untold number of organs and causing substantial blood loss. Obviously a car crash could completely demolish a person. You only have about a 5-10% chance of dying, if shot by somebody else. Looking at the broader set of statistics, there are a total of 104,852 gunshot injuries in the U.S., or 31,347 deaths (29.8%). 18,735 deaths are suicide, which are intentionally self inflicted, and thus more likely to kill someone. This results in 12,612 deaths from murder or accident, and out of 86,117 incidents, is 14.6% of all gunshot wounds relating in a death. It's even lower than this when other factors are applied.
 
What I'm trying to present is a sense of scale; people often times mistake firearms for extremely deadly weapons, or assume people want firearms for their deadly nature. The reality is the convenience, that is range, the loud noise and bright flash which attracts attention and instantly screams call the police, and the ease of which the trigger can be pulled. One can engage a target, whilst running away, or can take cover behind something such a car or brick wall which serves as a natural barrier between you and the target. To fight someone in a knife fight takes raw strength, speed, and intelligence, on top of the skill to know how to use the knife, and the commitment, or dedication to rush in close with an attacker and get a hit. You may hit him, but he probably can hit you, too; knives, axes etc. are intuitive to use, since human instincts tell use how to use the weight of a weapon or device through raw feel. Guns on the other hand, are not so easy to use. The average police officer only has about a 1 in 6, to 1 in 10, or 10-15% chance, of hitting the target (Page 4). One then could reasonably assume that criminals would have a lower chance to hit. Even if they did, there's only about a 5-15% chance it will the person, and that's assuming medical personnel can't get there quickly. By the time the criminal pulls the trigger, he has a about a 10-15% chance to hit you, and a .25%-2.5% chance of killing you. The idea that, as soon as someone pulls out a gun, your gun is useless, is really not particularly true, given that not every bullet will be a hit, and not every hit will be a kill, let alone an instant kill. If using guns was so easy, being a sniper or the training emphasized by modern militaries would be ignored, since just anyone could shoot someone and instantly killing them with no skill. The notion that it gives killers the ability to kill people instantly or that it's impossible to defend against, is rather ridiculous. 
 
 
 
 
 
There's a correlation between civilian gun ownership and the homicide rate
Technically there is a correlation, but not one that implies more guns equates to more violence. This is a common myth I hear perpetuated, the idea that, the lowest homicide countries all have low volumes of guns, so therefore, doesn't that mean that civilian ownership of guns increases violence, or at the very least, homicides? 
 
The problem is that there is no such association. For the sake of brevity and to target the issue, I'll take a look at the top 25 countries with the lowest homicide rates, whom possess information regarding their total civilian firearm ownership, and compare that to the world average. According to the United Nation's small arms survey, there are approximately 875 million firearms total in the world, and 650 million in civilian hands (Page 1). The world population on July 15th 2015, according to the Population Division of the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs, is approximately 7.3 billion. Doing simple math, that means there are approximately 8.9 guns per 100 people in the world on average, in civilians hands. 
 
The U.S. possess a third to a half of these firearms, creating a world average excluding the U.S. of approximately 5 guns per 100 people (350 million out of 7 billion), and countries such as Switzerland or Israel have fully automatic weapons in the homes of civilians, military firearms, given to them by the state, which offsets this figure somewhat. Nonetheless, this gives us a rough baseline of the world average of guns. How high is the gun ownership rate in the the countries with the top lowest homicide rates?
 
20 out of the 25 (80%) have a higher gun ownership rate higher than the world average. Of these, 15 have a gun ownership rate higher than 15 per person (60%), and 7 (28%) have a firearm ownership rate of 30 per 100. Another common association is that the U.S. has a significantly higher homicide rate than Europe. While Europe does in fact have countries with lower homicide rates than the U.S., the average is about 3.0, while it was about 4.5 in the U.S. suggesting a not so extreme difference. Comparatively, Russia had a homicide rate of 13, Greenland 19.4, Brazil 25.2, Venezuela 48, and El Salvador 65.
 
This is a comprehensive list of the UNODOC's self reported homicide and civilian firearms ownership rate. The bolded are countries above the average. The Raw numbers are Japan is .6, Singapore is at .5, Iceland is at 30.3, Brunei is at 1.4, Bahrain is at 24.8, Austria is at 30.4, Luxembourg is at 15.3, Oman is 25.5, Slovenia is 13.5, Switzerland is at 45.7, United Arab Emirates is at 22.1, Czech Republic is at 16.3, Spain is at 10.4, Germany is at 30.3, Qatar is at 19.2, Denmark is at 12, Norway is at 31.3, Italy is 11.9, New Zealand is at 22.6, China is at 4.9, Bhutan is at 3.5, Saudi Arabia is at 35, Sweden is at 31.6, Malta is at 11.9, and Australia is at 15.
 
 
 
Surely Mass shootings are Higher?
Surely mass shootings are higher? If not for violent crime or homicides in general, surely it's the mass shootings? There is little evidence to substantiate this, even though it's been said by the president of the United State's; that's how common a myth it is. So, what do the facts say, do mass shootings, and mass murders, occur in other countries than the U.S.? Other industrialized or "advanced" countries?
 
Here is a chart of such countries. 
mass%20shooting%20chart_zpsluejxw0p.png
 
As you can see, the U.S. has a rate of about .15, and Switzerland is .17, Finland is .34, while Norway is 1.3. Hold on a second here. Norway has a homicide rate of .6, but then suddenly, a single mass attack brought it up 2.2 homicides per year?! They have a mass murder rate of 1.3, compared to the U.S.'s of .15? How is this possible? The fact of the matter is, it's completely random. It has almost no bearings on the total murder rate. Crime is random, and random mass attacks are evne more random. We can't blame anyone, any law or any procedure for this. It is an inevitability in a free world. The UK has had mass attacks since their gun laws were enacted. Australia has had them. Australia has had knife attacks, and fire attacks. These problems don't go away by laws, by wish washy feel good measures. 
 
These violent attacks are caused by deeply rooted psychological issues. Each one of them has been insane, a terrorist, or possessed other mental issues. By ignoring the human aspect, by ignoring these people as people, and instead focusing on the weapon, be it the car bomb in the Oklahoma city bombing attack, the knives in the Chinese attacks, the box cutters or the plane used in 9/11. The fact of the matter is, these problems will persist as long as there are people motivated to kill one another, and it's naive or even blind to simply think that regulating a single tool will take away the ability for people to kill one another, even in large numbers. 
 
 
 
The Danger of assault weapons
Hey, you take a scary word, assault, you mix it with another scary word, assault weapon, and you have the making for a great thing to be scared of, right? Approximately 2% of all gun homicides use a weapon that would qualify as an "assault weapon" (Page 2) (Page 98), with the highest estimate of 8% in state's such as California with much broader assault weapon categories. In fact, only about 9% use a rifle or a shotgun at all (4% and 5% respectively). Roughly 88%, or a confirmed 72% of firearms homicides use a pistol, or a handgun.  According to the FBI, in 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns. [1] This is a little strange, considering people continue to assert that these weapons are particularly deadly or should be banned. 
 
Try to explain to me why an adjustable stock should be banned? A barrel shroud? A forward grip? Do you even know what these things are? If not, and you support an assault weapons ban, you are blindly banning something that you have no idea what it is. And to me, that is terrifying. Who knows what you might vote in if you actually have no idea what these things are? How, do you believe, they make weapons any deadlier? Any more dangerous? What particular features about them say the average civilian shouldn't have one? If you're jumping on the bandwagon to support something simply because of it's name, you are a terrifying, ridiculous individual, and you should make a mental note that you dived head first in to policy that would effect hundreds of millions of people, effect their freedoms, based literally on nothing; no thought, no googling, nothing. A knee-jerk reaction, you blindly supported it. To me, the most dangerous element of a democracy is when the votes aren't counted properly or people are uneducated about the subject at hand, because that effectively makes the democracy worthless. What's the value of the citizenry choosing something if they don't think about that choice? Or their thinking is dumb?
 
For those of you who have a done a little bit more information or haven't made up your minds, the fact of the matter is, adjustable stocks, pistol grips, forward grips, barrel shrouds, and the like are not particularly dangerous. They don't increase the lethality of the firearm or danger in any way. They do however make it more comfortable, and so that different people can use the weapon. A person with loner arms may want a longer stock, while a person with shorter arms may want a shorter stock. With an adjustable stock, you can simply make this stock fit to your shoulder without major tools or modification. In this way, it makes the gun more comfortable. Perhaps the only logical thing to come out 
 
On  top of this, the assault weapon bill promises to ban another 153 guns by name. These are largely the most popular firearms in the U.S., such as the AR-15, Ak-47, mossberg 500, Remington 870, and the like. They suggested that they wouldn't be attacking the average American's guns, but these are the average gun's people own. It's in fact nearly 90% of the firearms. Even if you still agree that adjustable stocks, pistol grips, forward grips etc. should be banned, you surely can't believe that all these guns which lack these features need to be banned, as well? For what purpose does this serve? I don't want anyone to feel stupid or dumb. After all, it's a commonly held opinion, and a lot of people think this way. But I do want you to realize how it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, how you support something and you don't really know what it is. I assure you, if you did, you wouldn't support it. I want you to feel smart for realizing that you can realize these things, and then do it, all the time. Almost everyone has the potential for intelligence, it's all a matter of applying yourself.
 
For me, when someone says the word "assault weapon", it's an automatic red flag. As compared to other types of weapons, that aren't used for assault? Such as chocolate weapons? After all, anything can be a weapon, and any weapon can be used to assault. Why not say "Assault firearm", or "assault gun", or even "lethal firearm", or "lethal gun". Why not "deadly weapons", or the like? Why assault? It's practically the vaguest term in existence, and it could contain almost anything. And from the looks of it, it contains a lot of random stuff.




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#2 Manoka

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 05:13 AM

Expansion on mass Murders
There have been approximately 78 shootings from 1983-2012. (Page 11). In these, 547 died, and 1023 were casualties, total. That comes down to about 18 deaths per year, or 34 casualties. Comparatively, more people are struck and killed by lightning, about 40-50 are killed and 500 are struck, in the U.S. You're more likely to win the lottery. 
 
The Oklahoma city bombing killed and injured nearly 680 people, which is about 2/3rds of all the shootings in the last 30 years, in a single attack. The 9/11 attacks killed and injured 6000 people, which is about 6 times more than that of all the mass shootings combined. Those guys used box cutters. As for convenience, guns require extensive background checks. You can buy solid ammonium nitrate, which is an explosive in and of itself. Acetone peroxide can be made just by mixing two chemicals together, no bunson burners or anything. Hydrogen peroxide is like ammonium nitrate in this respect. It's no more complicated than putting bullets into a gun, or prepping your location beforehand.
 
The notion that violence will disappear if we regulate one tool is more than silly, it should be known as ridiculous by this point. Taking away guns will not take away the means to kill people, the ability to kill lots of people, or the deeply rooted psychological reasons that cause people to kill. People have been killing each other, in large numbers, since the dawn of man. Great wars, the crusades, Genghis Khan, the Roman army, have been fought which killed far more people than guns ever have. The leading killer in war has been explosives and disease, not guns, for nearly 100 years. The fact of the matter is, these problems with persist until we engage the human problem, the people, and stop reducing them to a car bomb, a gun, or a box cutter.
 
 
If just 1 life
A common argument is that, if even 1 life could be saved, we should ban guns. While I enjoy the sentiment, this argument rarely holds true for a myriad of other things in government, such as say, drugs. Drugs are purely recreational, and contribute little to society outside of this. Some drugs promise additional minute medical benefits, however these drugs can be regulated for the medical industry, for this alone. According to the CDC (Page 19) in 2011, 40,239 people die from drug related deaths, and 26,256 die from alcohol, for a total of 66,495. About 6.5% of fatal car accidents were from marijuana alone (36.9% of 18%), which is about 2000 people dead annually. A decade later, and it's closer to 12%.  In 2004, 46.7% (Page 7) of all violent offenders met the criteria for being drug dependent. 27.7% were under the influence during the violent offense. Only about 5% of people in the U.S. are Chronic users of illegal drugs. It speaks volumes about the impact it can have on people's brains. People seem to be okay with legalizing drugs, even less harmful one's like marijuana or alcohol, but they aren't okay with guns? Other than killing more people, the fact of the matter is it takes 1 life purely for recreation, not for any need. This is considered acceptable?
 
I think people often get too riled up in the argument. Even if it could maybe save 1 life, is that enough to justify the removal of freedoms, rights, and a symbol of these things from people? To disallow them to have the choice? Lightning strikes kills more than mass shootings, but which people are arguing for greater lightning safety, such as it being illegal to go out doors during a lightning storm, or requiring that we have lighting rods on our roofs? For banning things like alcohol or certain paid medications? After all, not only would it save just 1 life, it would save dozens of lives of innocent people, far more than gun takes. Are they somehow less valuable because they weren't killed by guns? Where's the rational than this? Or, is the argument fueled by nothing but pure bias, simply attempting to disenfranchise hundreds of millions of people on arguments that contradict their own beliefs? It's known as cognitive dissonance, the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change. You're perfectly okay with thousands dying here for recreation, but not over here, because look how bad those people are, hypocritically ignoring their own fallacies. 
 
Furthermore, what about the lives taken as a consequence of gun control? According to a Bipartisan aggregate study authorized by Obama and carried out by the CDC and it's affiliate partners (Page 15), defensive gun use at least equal violent crime rates with guns, according to almost every study presented. While it varies considerably on the year (1,529,742 in 1993, compared to 467,321 in 2011), most sources indicates that just as many people are able to prevent harm to themselves with guns, as there are violent crimes. Only about half of all household own a gun, so if half of all violent crimes with guns are stopped, this poses an interesting question. Regardless, the successful violent crime rate is likely to double, which would do far more than take just 1 life. It's an argument used to justify almost anything, without actually considering the raw hypocrisy or potential damage that could be done be enacting such laws. 
 
 
Gun Violence after Gun Control
The fundamental crux of this argument is that gun laws are what are responsible for lowering crime in various countries. While apples to apples comparison of different countries is rather difficult due to the methods in which statistics are collected, represented, portrayed, and the definitions of crimes and methodology, internal comparison are much easier. As a countries own statistics stay relevant to themselves, it becomes easier to make comparisons to their former selves.
 
In the UK, the number of homicides, pre-gun ban, in 1983, was 550. By 2010, it was 550, again. However, there was a peak of 1047 in 2003. In 1988, the UK banned semiautomatic weapons, as well as a host of other weaponry, and almost completely banned handguns in 1997. Given nearly three decades, or 27 years, crime is back to where it was pre-gun ban, which means that, after your gun laws were enacted, it took over 20 years to finally get back to the levels of homicide BEFORE the gun bans.
 
In Australia, there were about 300 homicides in 1993, and by 2007, there were 260. It's natural for a countries crime rates to fall as development increases, so this is to be expected. 1996 was the year that Australia implemented harsh gun laws, and immediately following this crime spiked, reaching a peak of 350 in 1999,  and it did not dip below 300 (the 1993 level) again until 2003, nearly a decade later. Homicide only fell about 15% in their country as of 2007, after initially spiking.
 
 
In the U.S., during the same time frame, had a peak of 24,530 murders in 1993, and fell to 14,249 in 2014, or well over 40%. While you could still argue that at face value this is higher than either the UK or Australia, the fact of the matter is gun homicide rates went up during the same time they fell in America. If the results of the policy are to be considered, in the UK homicides were higher for 27 years, and they were higher for 14 years in Australia, before getting back to their current levels. If that's the case, than how we can suggest that gun laws were responsible for their lower crime rate in comparison? They were lower before and after the gun laws. If anything, crime went up immediately following the gun laws.
 
 
 
Expanded Tables

20 out of the 25 (80%) have a higher gun ownership rate higher than the world average. Of these, 15 have a gun ownership rate higher than 15 per person (60%), and 7 (28%) have a firearm ownership rate of 30 per 100. 
 
Monaco, Palau, Hong Kong, French Polynesia, Guam, Macau, Vanuatu, Federated States of Micronesia are not on the list of recorded guns per capita by country. So technically, this is the top 25 countries with the lowest homicide rate with information regarding their civilian ownership of guns. The lowest homicide rate listed is for Japan at 0.3 per 100,000 individuals, and the highest is 1.1 for Australia. 
 
Bolded countries have higher than the world average, or 8.2 guns per 100 people. Red countries have the same or higher than 15 guns per 100 people. Green countries have higher than 30 guns per 100 people. 
 
1. Japan is .6
2. Singapore is at .5
3. Iceland is at 30.3
4. Brunei is at 1.4
5. Bahrain is at 24.8
6. Austria is at 30.4
7. Luxembourg is at 15.3
8. Oman is 25.5
9. Slovenia is 13.5
10. Switzerland is at 45.7
11. United Arab Emirates is at 22.1
12. Czech Republic is at 16.3
13. Spain is at 10.4
14. Germany is at 30.3
15. Qatar is at 19.2
16. Denmark is at 12
17. Norway is at 31.3
18. Italy is 11.9
19. New Zealand is at 22.6
20. China is at 4.9
21. Bhutan is at 3.5
22. Saudi Arabia is at 35
23. Sweden is at 31.6
24. Malta is at 11.9
25. Australia is at 15.


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#3 Manoka

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 05:15 AM

TL;DR 

 

There you go, I've just provided you all the information you need about it. 

 

Now shut up about it already! emoticon%2011_zpsabycjhju.png

 

So we can have some peace and quite, in the terrace.

 

 

Even if, even if somehow you were 100% successful in your goals, and the mass hysteria, removal of rights, ability to defend yourself etc. didn't all have negative consequences, mass attacks would what, instead be done with inferior weapons that would only kill half as many people, or three quarters?

 

You're content with the idea of robbing people of their rights to cut the number of deaths of children, what, in half, by one quarter, and still not truly solve the problem, just put a band-aid on it?! Unless we get to the root core of the issue, people's psychologically, poverty, organized crime, these kinds of attacks will continue. You've lowered the bottom line marginally. Meanwhile there's all these other children dying that you're doing fuck-all about, yippee? 



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#4 the rebel

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 11:50 AM

When copying and pasting someone's work its complimentary to provide citations rather than pass it off as your own work :P

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#5 Manoka

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 11:55 AM

When copying and pasting someone's work its complimentary to provide citations rather than pass it off as your own work :P

lolwat. 

 

I wrote this myselves.



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#6 wildbillhkhk

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 11:52 PM


When copying and pasting someone's work its complimentary to provide citations rather than pass it off as your own work :P


Plagiarism check says no.

#7 Redezra

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 03:00 AM

Gun myth: They're good for anything useful.



#8 Manoka

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 03:58 AM

Gun myth: They're good for anything useful.

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010)."

 

http://www.nap.edu/r...19/chapter/3#15



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#9 KiWi

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 04:52 AM

Gun myth: They're good for anything useful.


Fun is useful.

Providing humans with the means to kill baddies and tear down civilized institutions is useful.

The same way that a nail remover is useful for removing nails. Why would you do that unless you're either a carpenter or a sadistic torturer, idk. But it's a use still.

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 05:41 AM

Freedom :D



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#11 Alyster

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 05:50 AM

Please provide source next time, since you didn't write this one we all know :)

 

 

In the UK, the number of homicides, pre-gun ban, in 1983, was 550. By 2010, it was 550, again. However, there was a peak of 1047 in 2003. In1988, the UK banned semiautomatic weapons, as well as a host of other weaponry, and almost completely banned handguns in 1997. Given nearly three decades, or 27 years, crime is back to where it was pre-gun ban, which means that, after your gun laws were enacted, it took over 20 years to finally get back to the levels of homicide BEFORE the gun bans.

 

1983 -550 homicides

2010 - 500 homicides

 

You know what I see in these numbers? 20% decline. Because 550 homicides in a country with 53 million and and 550 homicides in a country with 65 million people are different. 



#12 the rebel

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 07:24 AM

@Alyster: I think he is also confused on what banned means. He talks about the UK like he has a clue, but he doesn't.

Vagrancy Act 1824
Night Poaching Act 1828
Gun Licence Act 1870
Pistols Act 1903
Firearms Act 1920
Firearms Act 1937
Firearms Act 1968

I'm sure I've missed a couple but its interesting that he thinks 1983 is pre-gun ban. When those listed above have limitations on firearms.

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#13 Manoka

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 07:25 AM

Please provide source next time, since you didn't write this one we all know :)
 


In the UK, the number of homicides, pre-gun ban, in 1983, was 550. By 2010, it was 550, again. However, there was a peak of 1047 in 2003. In1988, the UK banned semiautomatic weapons, as well as a host of other weaponry, and almost completely banned handguns in 1997. Given nearly three decades, or 27 years, crime is back to where it was pre-gun ban, which means that, after your gun laws were enacted, it took over 20 years to finally get back to the levels of homicide BEFORE the gun bans.


1983 -550 homicides
2010 - 500 homicides

You know what I see in these numbers? 20% decline. Because 550 homicides in a country with 53 million and and 550 homicides in a country with 65 million people are different.

Wat. Of course I wrote it, I wrote the whole thing.

In 2010 there were actually 619 homicides, according to the chart. By 2012 there were 550.

Of course in the middle of all this, Crime was higher for 27 years. My entire point being that, it took 27 years to get back to roughly the same crime rate.


In 27 years of technological advancement, cellphones to call police, cars to transport police to the scene, improved crime scene forensics etc. you would have expected it to have dropped considerably, instead it's stayed about the same.

It's not really proof that gun laws work to lower crime. Looking at the general trend, crime rates actually spiked initially after the guns were banned.


The population differences are relatively minor, which is why I didn't include them. In 1983, there was a population of about 56.3 million, compared to 63.7 million in 2012. [1] That's about a 12% or so difference in population, or 7.4 million people. So, compared to the 2010 data of 619 homicides to 550, that's about a 12% difference in homicides. It took 27 years to get back to approximately the same rate.

Although my numbers may be off a little in the OP (I think I said 550 for 2012, when I meant to say it was the same homicide rate).

 

Crime has barely fallen after major gun bans, and yet they've continued to fall in the U.S. during the same time frame, being nearly half the rate it was before. At the very best, we can say it dropped 10% or so in the UK.



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#14 Manoka

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 07:33 AM

@Alyster: I think he is also confused on what banned means. He talks about the UK like he has a clue, but he doesn't.

Vagrancy Act 1824
Night Poaching Act 1828
Gun Licence Act 1870
Pistols Act 1903
Firearms Act 1920
Firearms Act 1937
Firearms Act 1968

I'm sure I've missed a couple but its interesting that he thinks 1983 is pre-gun ban. When those listed above have limitations on firearms.

Assault weapons, semiautomatic weapons, open carry, pistols etc. were banned following 1983. Previously semiautomatic rifles and the like were allowed, now they're not. Those were the biggest gun bans. 

They've had little if any impact on crime, let alone murder.



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#15 the rebel

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:03 AM

They've had little if any impact on crime, let alone murder.


Obviously it has since gun homicide is low. If it had no impact gun homicide would be high. Next bullshit response?

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#16 Manoka

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:09 AM

They've had little if any impact on crime, let alone murder.


Obviously it has since gun homicide is low. If it had no impact gun homicide would be high. Next bullshit response?

You say that, you say that, this MUST be the reason why homicide is low, but then when actually looking at the homicides rates, they've barely fallen, if it at all, after serious gun measures passed. They were the same before and after. And in the middle, crime actually went up.



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#17 the rebel

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:12 AM

Can't you read? I said "gun homicide"

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#18 Manoka

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:24 AM

Can't you read? I said "gun homicide"

Let's even assume that's the case, which you have literally not shown any evidence of. 

 

What does it matter?

 

 

If you're dead, you're dead. 

 

If a gun ban doesn't stop murder, than what's the point of it, other than taking away rights from citizens arbitrarily?

 

 

People will find other ways to murder each other while the police waste resources policing innocent civilians and ignore the real issues.

 

What's the point of a gun ban, then?



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#19 the rebel

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:51 AM

Everybody knows you dismiss any evidence that goes against your narrative, so why bother wasting my time educating someone who refuses to be educated.

If guns don't stop murder or crime then what's the point in guns? As your whole argument is that it does when in fact all evidence you post suggests that it doesn't.

But we've all been over your ignorance on this topic numerous times. Find a new hobby you're boring this forum with your rehashed nonsense.

You believe you need a gun to defend your pathetic excuse of a man whose scared of the world without his guns :(
While the rest of us don't need guns to defend ourselves as we aren't little girls like you.

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#20 Manoka

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 09:23 AM

Everybody knows you dismiss any evidence that goes against your narrative, so why bother wasting my time educating someone who refuses to be educated.

If guns don't stop murder or crime then what's the point in guns? As your whole argument is that it does when in fact all evidence you post suggests that it doesn't.

But we've all been over your ignorance on this topic numerous times. Find a new hobby you're boring this forum with your rehashed nonsense.

You believe you need a gun to defend your pathetic excuse of a man whose scared of the world without his guns :(
While the rest of us don't need guns to defend ourselves as we aren't little girls like you.

So basically you're saying, you don't have a good reason as to why they should be banned? fingers%203_zps5uw1giiz.png

 

Furthermore, other than freedom and recreation, it's useful in self defense. You won't have less crime, just less successful crime, and ergo less victims. You won't have any less attempted rape, just less actual rape. I've never tried to argue that the underlying conditions that lead to crime, poverty, desperation, culture etc. will just suddenly go away, but I have argued that banning guns obfuscates the issues, needlessly robs people of their rights, and takes resources, money, effort that could go towards solving the real problems, and instead directs them on to hurting innocent people. "Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010)." 

Priorities Research, Aggregate CDC Study authorized by President Obama

 

 

Also, if I'm a pussy for thinking I'm not bulletproof, than I don't know what to say. 

 

I'm just a reasonable adult male who doesn't think I'm invincible xD

 

 

It might be you who needs to stop getting all wrapped up by what you see in the movies. 

 

As well, other people, such as old Grandmas, woman, weak people do in fact need guns to defend themselves, so to fault someone for being physically weak is just pretty dumb of you. At best, idiotic. At worst sexist and the like. Someone should have to be super strong in order to be allowed to survive an attack? That's just an awful line of reasoning.



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