191 replies to this topic

[Redezra]

If science could find a way to harness the power of my brain, they could toast bread.  Lightly.

 

If they harnessed mine, it would set fire to the atmosphere :3

[Manoka]

What you have to remember is that we have the biggest traceable pool of firearms. The vast majority of guns being sold aren't traced, since it's between criminal organizations and warzones. Ak-47's, RPG's, Makarov's etc. are the primary weapon types we find in the Middle East, Africa, even South America. These weapons were not developed by the U.S. but Russia and allied communist countries (or country's the saw as communist).

 

After the fall of the soviet unions many Russian war criminals fled and took a plethora of weapons with them; the Russians kept no official records of deployed forces around the world, who trained and armed many terrorists organizations, much as how our Green berets trained freedom fighters. The Green Berets engage in something called "nation building", where a few hundred or so will make a small, private army so to speak, with the green berets serving as general, trainers, snipers, medics, and everything else.

 

 

Thus it's likely the vast majority of illegal firearms are of Russian or communist origin. You need only look at the type to realize this.

 

We did in fact give many arms and much training to Egypt, and when push came to shove their military rebelled against their leaders. Perhaps us being in control of their military isn't so bad after all.

 

 

But while the U.S. sells the most traceable firearms, they do so legally, to legal vendors; most sales are domestic. They as a result are not arming illegal dealers.

 

He also said "the single biggest source of illegal handguns in the world, which is guns stolen from law-abiding American houses", so yes, that is what he said.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I think a lot more arming of illegal actors goes on than you realize.  Watch the movie Lord of War.  The characters are made up, but the basic premise is based on reality.  Someone is making billions of dollars selling guns to drug lords, tyrants, and mercenaries the world over; you'd better believe Big Business is getting its cut.

[Manoka]

How about we go out on a limb here.

 

Where does big business keep it's workers?

 

 

China...?

 

China denies the existance of child slave rings, that can clearly be seen by sattelite.

 

 

It wouldn't suprise me if they were making illegal arms.

 

And there's nothing to say that it's not the same bunch of kids that makes nikes shoes. :/

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Child slave rings can be seen by satellite?

[Manoka]

Pssft, I don't remember where I saw dat.

 

I know of these two fo sure though.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....e_slave_scandal

 

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...na-slavery.html

 

 

 

Point is, if big business is involved, it wouldn't likely be in the U.S.

 

But in any case you don't make that much money from illegal arms sales.

 

 

Here's the best thing I have, from a U.N. report (be warned, it's PDF)

 

To get a sense of the relative value of the market for
firearms compared to other forms of contraband, it
helps to look at some concrete examples. On 16
November 2009, the Nicaraguan Government
made what was hailed as “one of the largest seizures
of weaponry ever made by the Nicaraguan authorities”
6 – a consignment of arms for the local representatives
of the Mexican Sinaloa cartel. The
shipment comprised 59 assault rifles, two grenade
launchers and 10 grenades, eight kilos of TNT and
nearly 20,000 rounds of ammunition. While this
sounds impressive, the total value of this shipment
was likely less than US$200,000 at point-of-sale.
Three days later, the Nicaraguan navy seized 2.4
tons of cocaine off the Caribbean coast. The value
of this shipment was at least 400 times as much,
around US$80 million in US wholesale markets.

[Alyster]

Child slave rings can be seen by satellite?

Right wing sees a lot of things I don't.

[Redezra]

Wat. That's a big ring of child slaves if you can see it from orbit.

[Haflinger]

We can ban guns and all we'd be doing is banning it from civilian hands.

That itself can become a problem.

No, this is not true.

In countries which have gun control, like mine, some criminals do have guns. (Mostly they're imported from your country, but I digress.) They have to hide them. They can't just walk around with their guns and blend in on the street. So normally they go out unarmed.

Were your country to enact a strict gun control ban, not only would you be removing the single biggest source of illegal handguns in the world, which is guns stolen from law-abiding American houses, you would immediately see the benefit of forcing criminals to engage in criminal activity in secret, instead of the current status quo where drug dealers can just drive around being fully armed.

Um... where did you get that the vest majority of hand guns in the world are stolen from American homes?

Also most states require concealed carry, and then concealed carry licenses, except under certain conditions.

Illegally held guns. Not most handguns.

It's just basic common sense: criminals want guns that can't be traced back to them. If you go to a store and purchase a gun, there's a record kept. You have identification, video cameras, the whole nine yards. If you break into someone's home and steal a gun, none of that applies.

Most guns in general are legally held. I remember earlier in this thread you kept on talking about the huge numbers of AK-47 type weapons out there. You're right, there are a lot of them. Most of them are owned by governments, and used by soldiers, and do not pose a significant threat to civilians (at least with the exception of those military forces that engage in war crimes, but that's a different issue). They tend to be kept under lock and key in places like military bases which are not quite as easy to break into as a suburban home in Phoenix.

Concealed carry laws don't apply when you're driving around. Stick the gun in a glove compartment, and you're fine. It's only if someone stops you and checks to make sure you have a license for the weapon that you'll be spotted. Whereas here, if a cop in a routine traffic stop notices a gun in a glove compartment, it's time for a trip downtown.

What you have to remember is that we have the biggest traceable pool of firearms. The vast majority of guns being sold aren't traced, since it's between criminal organizations and warzones. Ak-47's, RPG's, Makarov's etc. are the primary weapon types we find in the Middle East, Africa, even South America. These weapons were not developed by the U.S. but Russia and allied communist countries (or country's the saw as communist).

Yeah, most of those guns are legally held. You're talking about governments you don't like, I'm talking about bike gangs.

[Manoka]

 

 

We can ban guns and all we'd be doing is banning it from civilian hands.

That itself can become a problem.

No, this is not true.

In countries which have gun control, like mine, some criminals do have guns. (Mostly they're imported from your country, but I digress.) They have to hide them. They can't just walk around with their guns and blend in on the street. So normally they go out unarmed.

Were your country to enact a strict gun control ban, not only would you be removing the single biggest source of illegal handguns in the world, which is guns stolen from law-abiding American houses, you would immediately see the benefit of forcing criminals to engage in criminal activity in secret, instead of the current status quo where drug dealers can just drive around being fully armed.

 

Um... where did you get that the vest majority of hand guns in the world are stolen from American homes?

Also most states require concealed carry, and then concealed carry licenses, except under certain conditions.

 

Illegally held guns. Not most handguns.

It's just basic common sense: criminals want guns that can't be traced back to them. If you go to a store and purchase a gun, there's a record kept. You have identification, video cameras, the whole nine yards. If you break into someone's home and steal a gun, none of that applies.

Most guns in general are legally held. I remember earlier in this thread you kept on talking about the huge numbers of AK-47 type weapons out there. You're right, there are a lot of them. Most of them are owned by governments, and used by soldiers, and do not pose a significant threat to civilians (at least with the exception of those military forces that engage in war crimes, but that's a different issue). They tend to be kept under lock and key in places like military bases which are not quite as easy to break into as a suburban home in Phoenix.

Concealed carry laws don't apply when you're driving around. Stick the gun in a glove compartment, and you're fine. It's only if someone stops you and checks to make sure you have a license for the weapon that you'll be spotted. Whereas here, if a cop in a routine traffic stop notices a gun in a glove compartment, it's time for a trip downtown.

>>>What you have to remember is that we have the biggest traceable pool of firearms. The vast majority of guns being sold aren't traced, since it's between criminal organizations and warzones. Ak-47's, RPG's, Makarov's etc. are the primary weapon types we find in the Middle East, Africa, even South America. These weapons were not developed by the U.S. but Russia and allied communist countries (or country's the saw as communist).

Yeah, most of those guns are legally held. You're talking about governments you don't like, I'm talking about bike gangs.

 

Most illegal arms are smuggled into the country. 

 

They're untraceable becuase they don't even have serial numbers or things, or have fake ones, implying they were made in an illegal weapons manufacturing place, problably in Pakistan, China, or South America, *or* are just generall fall out weapons from wars.

 

 

I guess something to point out is that it's a random shot in the dark to know which house has a gun, and where the gun is hidden, and then to go rob that house for a gun.

 

Most criminals pass up hidden things, and generally most things of value in a house, so it's likely uncommon for guns to be stolen, or for this to be the largest contributor to crime; since the most used firearm in crime are handguns, then the vast majority of guns that would have to be stolen would be handguns; since hand guns are even smaller and harder to find, and thus are easier to hide/more likely to be hidden, then it's even less likely they're specifically targeting houses for hand guns that they'd have no idea where they are hiding and be systematically arming criminals with them.

Edited by Manoka, 17 April 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Haflinger]

No, they're not. While you can argue about where they're stolen from, the fact is that the largest handgun manufacturer in the world is Smith & Wesson, and while some of the Europeans have been catching up (notably Glock, Sig Sauer and Beretta), they're mostly taking advantage of the collapse of Colt. And most of their products are sold in the US market. Browning is still a large manufacturer as well.

 

It is much easier to steal guns than it is to smuggle them. Well, in the United States anyway. Here in Canada, the reverse is true, because private citizens here don't generally own handguns - which are by far the easiest guns to steal (try climbing out a window with a rifle sometime, lol).

 

Smuggling guns, you're going past border guards whose job it is to find illegal items that you might have in your possession. Stealing guns, you're usually just going past a window.

[Manoka]

No, they're not. While you can argue about where they're stolen from, the fact is that the largest handgun manufacturer in the world is Smith & Wesson, and while some of the Europeans have been catching up (notably Glock, Sig Sauer and Beretta), they're mostly taking advantage of the collapse of Colt. And most of their products are sold in the US market. Browning is still a large manufacturer as well.

 

It is much easier to steal guns than it is to smuggle them. Well, in the United States anyway. Here in Canada, the reverse is true, because private citizens here don't generally own handguns - which are by far the easiest guns to steal (try climbing out a window with a rifle sometime, lol).

 

Smuggling guns, you're going past border guards whose job it is to find illegal items that you might have in your possession. Stealing guns, you're usually just going past a window.

 

Largest hand gun supplier =/= largest illegal supplier.

 

Also your thing about biker gangs is largely off, since the biggest source of organized crime are cartels. O_o

 

 

Considering that cocaine is completely illegal, and it's likely the vast majority of cocaine suppliers are not licensed physicians, it's likely that smugglers are the largest suppliers. So smuggling is not that hard considering that nearly all illegal drugs are smuggled, and comparing how much gets into the U.S., it's easy to see how guns wouldn't be a whole lot more difficult/smuggled along with them, considering that the largest drug smugglers are also the largest illegal persons and imitation chinese good smugglers, as well.

 

I guess I can find some statistics if you like.

Edited by Manoka, 17 April 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Haflinger]

Drugs are a lot easier to smuggle than guns. For one thing, drugs don't show up on metal detectors. Spotting drugs usually requires trained dogs and the like, and they don't work on people's stomachs.

 

There just isn't a way to smuggle guns using things like drug mules. You can't swallow a bag of guns.

[Manoka]

Drugs are a lot easier to smuggle than guns. For one thing, drugs don't show up on metal detectors. Spotting drugs usually requires trained dogs and the like, and they don't work on people's stomachs.

 

There just isn't a way to smuggle guns using things like drug mules. You can't swallow a bag of guns.

 

Usually they're smuggled in by trucks or on the person; most of our border is unguarded so a lot of them just walk/drive across when no-one is looking, which is rather frequent.

 

Illegal immigrants get in by, say, being in the trunk of people's cars. Metal detectors don't work on cars, since cars are metal, and you don't go through a metal detector to get in and out of the country (some people drive across the border every day), and radiation scans are rare. So a person has to be suspicious of you before you get checked out, and then scanned, largely due to the fears of radiation issues.

 

 

So if they can smuggle in people they can smuggle in guns.

 

Drugs come in shipments in the hundreds of pounds some times. Ever hear of like, 200 pounds of cocaine, marijuana etc. being caught on some guy? It happens all the time. In there are usually guns, so the guy can fight off people if he's caught, and to sell. It's pretty easy to do. But most criminals prefer concealable weapons, to not get caught. Thus most weapons used in crimes are handguns and most handguns are on the small side, .38 special, .38 ACP, 8-9 round pocket pistols etc.

 

 

Guns can be dissaembled and broken into pieces so.

 

There's even been guns smuggled into prison. O_O;!

 

 

Ever heard of keister shanking?

 

Most criminals uh... hide stuff in their ass.

Edited by Manoka, 17 April 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Alyster]

 

 

 

Ever heard of keister shanking?

 

Most criminals uh... hide stuff in their ass.

Uh... smuggling guns up one's bum is highly unlikely. 

[Manoka]

 

 

 

 

Ever heard of keister shanking?

 

Most criminals uh... hide stuff in their ass.

Uh... smuggling guns up one's bum is highly unlikely. 

 

This happens in prisons all the time n stuff. O_o

 

I mean I hate to go into details.

[Alyster]

Please do. I'd like to know how you fit a AK-47 up someone's bum. 

[Manoka]

Handguns are the most common type of guns smuggled but uh, dissasembled you can fit quite a bit up your anus, and into your large colon, in addition to swallowing it.

 

As long as it has a folding stock everything can generally fit.

 

 

There are people who've snuck hand grenades and everything else, which actually cuase anal fissures. O_o

 

I'm sure justa could tell you though.

 

 

(I seesz you )

Edited by Manoka, 17 April 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Alyster]

A grenade I can believe.  But a handguns handle is bit hard to fit in there. And AK-47's barrel is too long. 

[Manoka]

You can dissamble it so it's like, two long things, and an Ak-47 barrel is like, 12-16 inches; I know of prisoners who have fit like 12 inch buck knives, which had to have had like 6 inch handles. O_o

 

Believe it or not it was snuck in through woman's vaginas. O_o?!

 

 

They could see the men and pretend to have sex so organized crime members could get weapons into jail.

 

It was some weird shit.

Edited by Manoka, 17 April 2013 - 01:45 PM.