76 replies to this topic

[KiWi]

My family was American all the way back to the founding of the country, and a smattering of everything from the British Isles before that. I don't know much about what my mom's side of the family did but I know my dad's dad was an artilleryman and he had an uncle who was some kind of special forces in the Pacific. There was a story my dad told about his uncle that stuck with me because at the time it sounded badass but as I grew up I started to realize how miserable it actually was. He said that his uncle had the job of parachuting onto Japanese held islands and fucking their shit up in preparation for the full scale attack. He said when he got back the rest of his family told him he would behave differently than he remembered. That it wasn't really possible to surprise him anymore and if you did he'd probably kill you.
 
But yeah, American all the way.

I thank you. And your country thanks you.

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To make a point; I describe my ancestry as something along the lines of a quarter German, a quarter Italian, and a spattering of Irish and what have you. As 'american' as I think German or Irish ancestry is (I mean, who isn't part Irish or German if you're a white red blooded american?), I'm surely not of a pure bloodline.

What I think makes an American, more than blood is an acceptance of a common nationality, and certain cultural ticks, that are uniquely american, and for the falseness, racism, lies, and pure idealism of the phrase "melting pot", I think it's exactly that, that makes america, America.

I will joke that if you don't celebrate Christmas, you are not American. I don't mean you need to necessarily have a tree, or sing carols, or buy presents, or believe in god (or hell, santa). But, the capitalism and everything bad ever aside from the holiday, I find it to be a uniting point culturally for what I consider to be American. I think of Christmas, as a strongly famililar holiday, but more so the season of Christmas (I consider Between Thanksgiving and New Years), I consider it to be a peace of mind. "Good will towards man". A collective nod, if a grumpy one, to the idea that we're all supposed to be good people, and we should be good simply for goodness' sake.

Oh. And fuck Hillary.

This is really strange, because my great-grandfather and two of his brothers were SS members, they disappeared on the Eastern front, and one was never heard from again. I'm starting to think Red and I are related. And actually that would explain a lot.

This is really strange, because my great-grandfather and two of his brothers were SS members, they disappeared on the Eastern front, and one was never heard from again. I'm starting to think Red and I are related. And actually that would explain a lot.

Oooooooooooooh~
 
 

Once again, the weird shit guests (or in this case, Bing) happen to be viewing on the online list proves immensely relevant to current discussions. In this particular case, a thread from 2014 where CeltSoldierKiev posits that Jorost and Redezra are, in fact, the same person.

 
 

Funny how we do that. I like it. Continue to bring up historical facts if you wouldn't mind

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EDIT:

Heard some stuff about trump on the morning news. Wanted to share an opinion somewhere (and this is the Clinton topic. Not family history).

I do honestly think the country will be worse* under Trump. He is a bad man. However, I still hate Hillary. And I would without hesitation vote for Trump over Hillary. And a major reason is I trust in our country, the citizens, our media, congress, etc, to call Trump out on his bullshit. And he'll do awful, awful things. See: Bush. But I am less worried about a second Iraq war caused by Trump, who will be hated by the country, than I am by Hillary who would "get away" with things. Now she won't magically be untouched. And the (honestly inhumanly disgusting) Republicans will hamstring her endlessly. ETC ETC. We've done this song & dance before.

But, I just think about those things. And Trump may push us towards one extreme I detest, that I feel will only be a (major) hindrance to the overall progression of our country forward ("forward"), rather than a push down the path of "progress" that may veer off course more than I am comfortable with.

The same (if not worse) things may happen under Trump. But they'll be recognized as bad. Water boarding. Patriot Act. North American Free Trade Agreement. (wait). Instead of celebrated, and codifed. (Repel of Glass Stegall).

And if someone wants to educate me, I'm not educated. I'd be glad to change or alter (reword) my views. But what I do know (and again, I will bare myself before the jury, and atone for my sins of ignorance, I plead guilty) about NAFTA or Glass Stegall alone, and my perception that those things are virtually ignored by the masses. And what I know about the Patriot Act, the Iraq War, the war on Terrorism, and how those things are vilified (if not unsuccessfully, more so in the case of the Patriot act). But you take progress where you can. We are a decade out. And there has been debate, but you can at least be respectful and disagree and fight the Patriot act. it can be more civily and equally among contenders, debated, where other issues are one sided or one sided is labeled reactionary radical racist dumb stupid fucking mongrals, any number of insults libtarded or alt right; anything to shut down conversation and ignore actual points, and be intellectually dishonest.

This was a shitpost. Thank you.

Edited by KiWi, 21 September 2016 - 05:23 AM.

[*Anastasia]

Your point about Christmas is well-made, although the analogy is perhaps narrower than I'd personally apply; the point of capitalism is, to me, the real defining point of Americanism currently.

Americans are, by and large, united by religion: not a belief in God or Christianity, much as the religious right would posit, but by the religion of money. It's been said before by men much smarter than myself that there exists a phenomenon by which no American is poor: there are Americans who are rich, and Americans who are not yet rich. The promise of the American Dream is that everyone can, with hard work, become rich, and that has been the goal towards which Americans have driven themselves since the postwar economic boom that created the modern middle class.

The American Dream is, of course, a myth. The entire premise of the capitalist system is that those who control capital flourish at the expense of those who do not, and barring artificial constraints—such as the Keynesian welfare state Americans have done such a good job discrediting and dismantling over the past three decades—prosperity for some will only come with the exploitation of others. Even the staunchest capitalists outside America seem to realize this, if only reluctantly, and so to an outsider, Americans' unwavering belief in this capitalist fiction, or at least their readiness to espouse it, unites modern Americans in a way few other things can. The belief in American exceptionalism might be the only trait more universal to Americans, but it's hardly uniquely American, mirroring nationalism and civic pride elsewhere both present and past.

And myth that the American Dream is, it's also not the first such myth that has united Americans, nor will it likely be the last. Before it came Manifest Destiny, the dream of the United States as providential savior of Columbia. After it, who knows? I have no doubt, however, that the religion of money will come to an end, later if not sooner. Just as prior American myths have had watershed moments that tested the resolve of the American identity, often with disastrous results, so, too, will the current idea of providential capitalism. Whether that will be for good or ill remains to be seen.

(Dirty commie that I am, though, I have high hopes.)

But for now, the One God of the Americans is strong, and the free-market pipe dream is still well-entrenched. And you know, that sort of makes Donald Trump the inevitable culmination of the cult you've built for yourselves.

[KiWi]

Sorry I edited my post with a major update after you liked it (was busy making it less awful than it ended up before even noticing you were online).

You make a lot of good points... and I don't disagree... but I also don't fully agree. Maybe that's my aversion to a harsher truth, or while I acknowledge the negative realities, I have an idealized version of "America" in my mind that I want my world to fit into. That I'll joke about, and strive for.

(reading your post again. Maybe I'll post later with something. I do certainly agree with the idea that the "American Dream" (like my "melting pot" or "Manifest Destiny" that you brought up,) is a unifying lie, a underlying, all encompassing headwind. We're other things too though. There's lots of things that make Americans Americans. But which of those things are because of our culture, or because we're where we are (geo)-political or social-economically. e.g. if another nation in europe had the land and material resources and weather and population of america, how would they be different?)

EDIT: One point I will make, just so I have something (and something I do believe); is your point that "The entire premise of the capitalist system is that those who control capital flourish at the expense of those who do not[...]" Of which I fundamentally disagree with. Perhaps I'm being too narrow in what I define as Capitalism, but specifically "flourish at the expense of those who do not" rubs me the wrong way, since Capitalism can exist without this. Now; capitalism, or more correctly a truly free (market) system, will encourage abuses and anything that will maximize profit at the expense of anyone (perceived expense, or direct expense, but I digress). But capitalism itself does not mean you benefit at the expense of another. It can just encourage the practice. Now, when they go hand in hand, you could say I'm splitting hairs, however I believe any real exploitation is not only morally wrong, but I believe should be fundamentally wrong (in a system of government, or in an ideal economic model).

e.g. I believe profiting by selling peanuts, while dumping the peanut shells on another persons property should be illegal. You are trespassing on another persons right, so a middle man, the justice system, the civilized society aspect of a legal system should step in and correct this wrong somehow.

The same way... that if you burn coal and put carbon dioxide into everyone's air, you must pay for that. If you can't contain your pollution (which is exactly the angle I am attacking, and the thing my trash or shallow peanut shell analogy was alluding to) then you must pay for transgressing on another persons right.

"It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. Gives me cancer or smugs up my windows"

Bold is added by me to the original quote.

[*Anastasia]

I guess what I'm saying when I talk about the exploitation inherent in capitalism is this: by selling those peanuts for a profit, based on the fact you own the land on which they were grown and the means to grow them, is inherently exploitative of the fact those buying them must pay a markup for the fact they do not own that land or those means of production.

Peanuts, of course, can be thought of as a luxury, but in the same way as they stood in for environmental pollution, they could stand in for nutritious food or water or shelter, or any of the various other things we consider necessities to survive in modern society. If I need a place to live, I can rent accommodation, but the goal of the property owner is to turn a profit, and so I'm always going to be paying more for that property than its inherent value. Where there is a skew in the control of those necessities common to all, the haves prosper, the have-nots flounder.

This can play out on small scales, where the American poor stay poor relative to the American rich, but also on global scales, where the relatively well-off American poor are still rich compared to the Chinese laborers who make their clothes and mobile phones, who are still rich compared to subsistence farmers in the Sudan. Accumulation of resources by one group leads to a dearth of resources for other groups.

Yes, I know I'm getting into Marxist territory here, and while I joke about being a dirty commie, I'm far more amenable to the idealism of it than the practicality. I don't truly believe the Marxist ideal of a classless society is attainable, just because humans are greedy sons of bitches. And I also know I'm preaching to the devil, as it were, since I'm disparaging the American ideal to (mostly) Americans. I'm not trying to convince you, really; it's just been a long time since I've had a big rant about socioeconomics.

[Shokkou]

As tempting as it is for me to use the commie's own favorite weapon against them and say "what we have isn't real capitalism" I will refrain and be the better man and instead say that all systems inevitably run into the same problem with human nature. That said the forms of capitalism that have been tried have managed to last far longer providing far better quality of life for people than the forms of communism that have come about thus far. What we have now may not be pure capitalism, but it started from capitalist ideals and the perversion came as it always does from people with the power to do so giving themselves little advantages here and there until 200 years later - and it has taken capitalism over 200 years to get to this point - where we have the over-regulated protectionist mess we have today. On the other hand, nations who founded their economies on communist ideals find their systems perverted almost from the word go and repeatedly fail to prop themselves up without force and foreign intervention. If the whole of human history has been an iterative experiment to find what can work better than before, then the results of the past few centuries seem to fairly clearly indicate that the solution is to move closer to pure capitalism than further away from it.

[Manoka]

I always like to say "name one successful communist country in the world", which, you can't really find one. The soviet union, China, Cuba, North Korea, Eastern European countries, during communism, they all sucked. Many still suck today even though they technically aren't "communist". 

 

You've never seen communism do well. 

 

 

I'm alright with socialism but communism is garbage. It's inherently flawed and you will see those flaws emerge repeatedly any time the system is attempted to be enacted. 

 

They don't understand human nature. And I mean that they think everyone is inherently bad. Capitalists think that with little government regulation everything will run fine and work itself out, which is a pretty optimistic view of human nature and is mostly true. Communists think that everyone is evil and only a small percentage of ubersmensch should rule over us stupid peasants who can't think for ourselves. Hardcore capitalists are wrong in that, some regulation is a good idea, but communists are wrong in that dominating an economy is absolutely moronic. According to communists the people are in control but the system has no checks and balances so, in practice they never are. Communism also kills off the intellgencia, the Doctors and so on, because they are dah ebilsz, and believes in a dictatorship of the poor. Which is just as dumb as dictatorship by the rich. 

 

Democracy is where it's at. Only the self righteous and extremely stupid think they should be dictator of everyone. As if they're smarter than all the millions of people in the world combined, they know more than all the farmers, all the doctors, all the scientists and so on. Frozen tomatoes that cause massive crop failures? Because Stalin is smarter than the millions of farmers who know what grow well in their soil? Kills them for not following orders, then causes famines when they do. The arrogance and utter stupidity is enormous. Letting things run themselves with regulations is the ideal form of government, not absolute control. 

 

Communists think that if we pay everyone the same, crime goes away! The poor are just jealous of the rich, right, and that's why crime is committed? It's nonsensical. Class will exist regardless of how much people are paid, people will be snobs to physical labor, or white collar workers who don't work hard, or over sports teams or even things like race and religion. You think bigotry and class goes away if everyone is paid the same? Someone knows nothing about real life. It's an inherent failure to understand human nature that communism lacks, on almost every level. 

Edited by Manoka, 21 September 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

LAWDY this went off on a tangent.

 

There are plenty of countries that have balanced socialism and capitalism with great success. The Scandinavian model is frequently cited, not least of which by me. Germany, Australia, and New Zealand are further examples. Which is not to say that these places are utopias where nothing ever goes wrong and every social problem has been solved. Far from it. But they have gone a good deal further down the progressive road than the United States has done. I think we'll get there eventually. But what do I know? Maybe Trump will be elected and we'll become an Alt Right dictatorship and we'll all be driving around with Pepe stickers on our cars.

[*Anastasia]

What we have now may not be pure capitalism, but it started from capitalist ideals and the perversion came as it always does from people with the power to do so giving themselves little advantages here and there until 200 years later - and it has taken capitalism over 200 years to get to this point - where we have the over-regulated protectionist mess we have today.

I fail to see how American capitalism 200 years ago, where most of the wealth was accumulated in the hands of wealthy merchants and plantation owners and the poorest people were literally slaves, purer capitalism that it was, was any better than the 'over-regulated protectionist mess we have today.' Loath though I am to admit it, American capitalism is, if anything, better now—and it's only started getting worse again because of this Reaganic idea that 'purer is better.'

[Shokkou]

What we have now may not be pure capitalism, but it started from capitalist ideals and the perversion came as it always does from people with the power to do so giving themselves little advantages here and there until 200 years later - and it has taken capitalism over 200 years to get to this point - where we have the over-regulated protectionist mess we have today.

I fail to see how American capitalism 200 years ago, where most of the wealth was accumulated in the hands of wealthy merchants and plantation owners and the poorest people were literally slaves, purer capitalism that it was, was any better than the 'over-regulated protectionist mess we have today.' Loath though I am to admit it, American capitalism is, if anything, better now—and it's only started getting worse again because of this Reaganic idea that 'purer is better.'

Is it though? If I wanted to run a cafe out of my house it used to be as easy as putting a sign out front. Nowadays if I did that I'd be buried in fines up to my eyeballs. The idea that I'm somehow better off being given someone else's money than trying to start my own small business is absurd but that's exactly what your model of "capitalism" would have me believe.

[*Anastasia]

I mean, yeah, I prefer business licenses to slavery. I also, as a consumer, prefer public safety measures to ensure businesses don't kill half their customers before the 'free market' solution of people finding out and avoiding them kicks in.

[Shokkou]

I mean, yeah, I prefer business licenses to slavery. I also, as a consumer, prefer public safety measures to ensure businesses don't kill half their customers before the 'free market' solution of people finding out and avoiding them kicks in.

"I prefer this one thing that has nothing to do with this other thing." Flawless logic. Also nice to know you think everyone should be treated as a criminal when they've committed no crime, which is what you want when you protect the business interests of massive corporations that can afford large legal teams over an ordinary citizen. Then there's the matter of the labor market. Part of the reason the value of labor is so low is because it's not really a feasible option for the average person to start up their own small business. So now you've got people who need to sell their labor to get by but everyone looking to buy knows they can't opt out. Gee it doesn't take a degree in economics to figure that one out.

[*Anastasia]

It has nothing to do with treating people as criminals, it has to do with protecting public health. Look, there are a lot of stupid regulations that are in place solely to protect special business interests that I will be happy to join you in tearing to bits, but you chose to demonstrate your point by railing against a perfectly sensible regulation: that businesses that serve food and drink to people should have to demonstrate that they're doing so safely. It makes absolutely perfect sense to me, and I daresay to most people, that Joe Schmo shouldn't be able to start a café out of his roach- or rat-infested kitchen that hasn't been cleaned in months, and that to prevent serious health epidemics, food providers should not only have to adhere to basic standards of sanitation and food safety, but also demonstrate to proper authorities that they're doing so. And if that means requiring you to get some permits before you start selling people food out of your house, that's not some ridiculous burden upon you to protect the interests of Big Café, that's a common sense burden upon you to protect the interests of public health.

 

I also posit that it makes perfect sense to most people that in the unrestricted free market of 200 years ago, people could buy and sell, well, people. I daresay you don't actually support slavery, but that also means you don't fully support the unrestricted free market you're holding up as the perfect role model. You can't defend an economic system that allows the institution of slavery to flourish and then dismiss out of hand anyone who points out that those good old days of the pure free market had really rather terrible consequences for, you know, one fifth of the American population.

[Redezra]

I for one believe that the natural state of human governance is tribal fascism. As soon as we figure out how to do that without killing a bunch of people or reducing personal freedoms, we've got it made.

 

Otherwise, it does not matter which governance or economic system you use. It's going to get fucked up anyway.

Edited by Redezra, 23 September 2016 - 11:00 PM.

[Manoka]

I for one believe that the natural state of human governance is tribal fascism. As soon as we figure out how to do that without killing a bunch of people or reducing personal freedoms, we've got it made.

 

Otherwise, it does not matter which governance or economic system you use. It's going to get fucked up anyway.

Right, because putting one crazy person in charge has worked so well during the course of human history... 

 

Let me guess, you think you ought to be the person in charge, too? xP

 

 

Exactly the person who shouldn't be. 

[Redezra]

Well, no actually, I'm pointing out the absurdity of trying to find a functional economic governance system for a society of primarily idiot apes. But thanks for trying.

Edited by Redezra, 24 September 2016 - 07:18 PM.

[Shokkou]

[Redezra]