71 replies to this topic

[wildbillhkhk]

Gun myth: They're good for anything useful.

Athens rebellion.

[the rebel]

@Manoka: in a country with proper gun regulations and not Mickey Mouse regulations, you will have more chance winning the lottery jackpot than ever needing to defend yourself against someone with a gun.

Furthermore I don't buy giving the weak firearms to give them a false sense of security, just like wearing a seatbelt doesn't make you invincible in reckless driving.

[Manoka]

@Manoka: in a country with proper gun regulations and not Mickey Mouse regulations, you will have more chance winning the lottery jackpot than ever needing to defend yourself against someone with a gun.

Furthermore I don't buy giving the weak firearms to give them a false sense of security, just like wearing a seatbelt doesn't make you invincible in reckless driving.

About 25 people win the lottery annually in the U.S. [1

 

There are some 300,000 to 400,000 cases of violent crime with firearms in the U.S. So, it is quite a bit more common. 

 

 

Furthermore, if it doesn't cause any problems, what's the problem of keeping them?

 

It's like banning seatbelts because, well, it's unlikely you'll have a car accident in the grand scheme of things. Why take them away? That's just draconic. 

[the rebel]

I said in a country with proper gun regulations and not like the states with mickey mouse gun regulations. Reading is you friend Manoka, try it sometime

[Manoka]

I said in a country with proper gun regulations and not like the states with mickey mouse gun regulations. Reading is you friend Manoka, try it sometime

Mickey Mouse Regulations? What does that even mean?

 

I've demonstrably shown that homicide rates don't go down following gun restrictions and bans, let alone in the UK or Australia. You even admitted to this, you just said you thought gun homicides would go down, not total homicides. So, what's the point in banning them, or providing more gun regulations if it won't do anything?

[the rebel]

Well countless school shootings and countless mass shootings do not always happen in countries that love guns and have proper regulations in countries that dont love guns with proper regulations. That is what it will stop. You remove the means for someone to easily shoot or kill multiple people either through proper regulations or banning and it will massively decease those events from happening. We've been over this before, I'm not repeating the same arguments ad infinitum.

[Manoka]

Well countless school shootings and countless mass shootings do not always happen in countries that love guns and have proper regulations in countries that dont love guns with proper regulations. That is what it will stop. You remove the means for someone to easily shoot or kill multiple people either through proper regulations or banning and it will massively decease those events from happening. We've been over this before, I'm not repeating the same arguments ad infinitum.

Mass shootings are, more or less, random. "They do not always happen" is more or less true, but that's due to randomness. They can happen in Norway, despite strict gun laws and regulations as you've cited, and they can happen anywhere else. I'm not necessarily opposed to stricter gun laws at their core, but being like the UK, Australia etc. seems like a terrible idea. Furthermore, even when shootings are not done as often, there's other forms of attacks, such as knife attacks or bombings. 

 

So you haven't really solved anything by punishing citizens or making it harder on them. You've just changed the type of weapon being used.

 

 

This is also a completely different argument from what you made earlier...

[Alyster]

Manoka may I ask you what advantages does fire arm have over OC spray?

 

I'll list the disadvantages: 

- Gun shoots only straight directory, if you miss you're dead

- Gun is harder to aim

- If you miss a gun shot and accidentally fire at someone's window you've committed an armed assault (making it very ineffective in cities)

- If your target is closer to you than 2m gun is useless, skilled oponent will break your arm 9 times out of 10 before you can hit him

- If you missuse gun for "self defense" you do jail time

- If you're out drinking you can't carry a gun

- If someone else finds your gun and missuses it they can mortally wound someone (children)

- If someone else uses your gun illegally you do jail time as well

- Guns have a scare factor. If you pull out a gun like object the police will just kill you. Plain simple. 

- Guns cost more

 

With OC you have aerosol and gel spraies that you can use in and out doors. You don't really need to aim, you can use it even if the oponent has grab of your arm and since they are smaller they are more easily accesible. You can get the can from your keychain/belt/pocket even if your wasted. And it doesn't do fatal damage but burns like hell for quite a long period. It is for all intense and purposes perfect defense option.

 

With a gun, no offense, but unless you're a marine or something you'll miss at 10+ meter ranges in real life events and are helpless if enemy is in close combat. That is if you even make it to your gun in case of an emergency. 

 

So if you pull out statistics that your home country has fucked up crime rate, guns aren't what keep you safe. (illegal) Guns rather tend to be the problem of it. 

 

But sure high gun access and high crime rate are not always in direct correlation. For example look at Finland. They have a socialist wellfare state with one of the best heatlcare and educational systems in the world. Their pupils score TOP10 and TOP5 places in PISA studies for ages now. And they have very wide accessibility to guns. 

 

If you really want to bring down the crime rate in the US lower the education cost and improve the quality. Make secondary education accessible for people in the slums as well. Don't ignore the slums, make their life better. In the end of the day, your own life will be better. 

 

Also

 

Edited by Alyster, 31 October 2015 - 04:37 PM.

[Manoka]

Pepper spray or OC Spray has to be aimed at the eyes, is harder to aim than a gun since it's like a little bottle (a gun shaped one is easier to aim, though), has a shorter range and a shorter duration of time in use. They're much more difficult to refill and practice with. Any pepper spray or aerosol weapon, let's say a tear gas canister for instance, that truly didn't need to be aimed would also get it on you, which means that you'd be just as likely to become incapacitated by the weapon as your attacker, which leaves you vulnerable to subsequent attacks.

 

There are a plethora of factors relating to crime other than education or poverty, although those are big one's. The availability and number of guns is not correlated with high crime, which hopefully I demonstrated. Larger volumes of gun than the world average are correlated with lower crime. But of course more guns won't lower crime rates, necessarily, again looking at the differences between correlation and causation. 

 

 

Also your video is out dated considering that Obama later endorsed an assault weapon's ban. xP

 

I don't usually watch videos, especially one's with a lot of fluff, I got bored from it... what was supposed to be in it?

[Alyster]

You've never used an OC have you? I've had the freedom to go beat up a cop with no consequences. Only trick was that he was allowed to use OC. Worst hour in my life after that.

 

The spray can lasts for minutes. I empty a pistol clip in half a minute. Also with a gas spray, who needs aiming? How do you "aim" deodorant to your armpits? This is nonsense. Chances of missing with a gun are ALOT higher. There's a small directory that is only dangerous. And most people fuck up the release anyway resulting the shot going high and to the side. 

 

Guns are harder to use, less effective, more dangerous in collateral damage, more expensive and have more limited usage. 

 

The video is about gun lobby being best marketing trick to boost gun sales :v

Edited by Alyster, 31 October 2015 - 05:45 PM.

[Manoka]

You've never used an OC have you? I've had the freedom to go beat up a cop with no consequences. Only trick was that he was allowed to use OC. Worst hour in my life after that.

 

The spray can lasts for minutes. I empty a pistol clip in half a minute. Also with a gas spray, who needs aiming? How do you "aim" deodorant to your armpits? This is nonsense. Chances of missing with a gun are ALOT higher. There's a small directory that is only dangerous. And most people fuck up the release anyway resulting the shot going high and to the side. 

 

Guns are harder to use, less effective, more dangerous in collateral damage, more expensive and have more limited usage. 

 

The video is about gun lobby being best marketing trick to boost gun sales :v

You still have to aim pepper spray, and not only that it has to be aimed at someone's eye, instead of a much larger target of say, a torso. The cone is more like a stream, a small jet. Here's an example. It has to hit them in the eyes to be effective, and it's got a range of about 6-15 feet. It's a small stream of liquid, it doesn't just spray out in a 2 x 2 meter pattern or anything. 

 

The spray typically only has a few seconds worth of stuff in it, unless you buy a huge bottle, say bear mace. But even that only lasts a bit longer and goes out a bit farther.

 

 

Pepper spray is useful against an unarmed or poorly armed attacker. But if the attacker is at a distance from you (say, with a gun), can hurt you grievously in fraction of a second (say being shot, stabbed), or generally has a decent weapon, than it's going to be much less effective. It's primary impact is pain, and in a fight someone can have enough adrenaline or be on drugs as such for it to be rendered useless. Given a couple of minutes, an allergic reaction will set in that often swells the target's eyes shut, but this isn't an immediate effect. Something like 46 to 52% of all violent crimes are done by someone dependent on drugs, so the chance of drug use is rather high in a violent encounter that would substantiate the use of pepper spray or the like. It doesn't automatically render an attacker incapable of hurting you, and it takes some type to line it up on someone's eyes exactly. A spray bottle has a less intuitive feel to it than say a handgun, because it's harder to point the nozzle. I know I have an easier time shooting bullets than trying to shoot wasps, with wasp spray. 

 

It would be a better argument to say that Obama is secretly boosting gun sales by threatening the assault weapon's ban and the like xD

 

 

As for aiming deodorant? If you pointed it at your face, you'd just get a face full of deodorant. Even deodorant has to be aimed. 

[Alyster]

You've never used OC and don't know what your talking about. 

[Manoka]

You've never used OC and don't know what your talking about. 

lol

 

That's why cops carry around guns and use guns on top of pepper spray, right? xP

 

 

It doesn't come out in a cone, it comes out in a concentrated stream, you have about 7 seconds, and a maximum range of 15 feet. [1]

 

If it did come out in a cone, it would have a very short range, since you'd be trying to spread out the energy over a wider area. If it truly came out like deodorant, it might be effective up to a few feet. The range is produced by the concentration of pressure in the stream, just like a water gun or garden hose; if you widen the area, then it simply dumps out the energy over a greater area, which reduces the pressure, and thus the range. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Pepper_spray

 

 

Not only have I seen pepper spray be used, in demonstrations, but I've also researched it heavily. Unless you have one of those gigantic, impractical one's that police use in riot control (which also necessitate the use of protective gear as to avoid getting it on themselves), it's not going to work like you claim, and even so they still have to have considerable aiming abilities to be able to use it, and the police wouldn't use it against heavily armed targets, and it's not always 100% effective. The little spray bottles are not just fountains that gush out and attack the nearest person's eyeballs like a guided missile without having to aim. xP

 

Do you know why the call it a "bulls eye"? Its' because it's hard to hit someone right in the eye. Not only are they generally harder to aim and require hitting someone in a specific target, but they're less forgiving since they're very difficult to reload and don't last as long. Even if all you have to do is hit them in the face, headshots are a lot harder than torso shots, which is why most militaries don't teach you to go after the head. I was hoping it would just be obvious as to why they'd be harder to use in general. Against an unarmed attacker at close range, they're great. Against another guy with a gun, they're not so much.

[Alyster]

Peper spray has two kind of ejection tipes:

a) A stream of foam / gel - for indoor use

b) Gas / cone - wide area gas cloud with out any aiming. You can basically build up a wall of gas they won't come thru. Aye u take a dose as well, but quite light dose compared to the other side. 

 

Way more useful than a gun. 

 

basics explained

 

I've had the opportunity to shoot it, get a load of it myself and been trained by riot police on OC usage. I keep around a OC made of natural peppers with gas / cone ejection. Natural peppers unlike lab made chemicals don't dissolve well in cold water. Hence it's a bitch to wash off - you need to apply warm water to burning skin. Gas makes it excellent for use against multiple targets. 

Edited by Alyster, 01 November 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Alyster]

Or are you going to shoot someone instead? You'll end up with a broken arm most likely before you can actually pull the trigger. 

[Manoka]

Or are you going to shoot someone instead? You'll end up with a broken arm most likely before you can actually pull the trigger.

I doubt I'll be up against bruce lee, someone who can come over and break my arm in a second. Furthermore, even if you believe this is the case, what's to stop someone from doing the same with pepper spray? The idea that by the time I've pulled my gun someone will automatically have broken my arm assumes a number of things, like that they can close the distance, like that I can't back up or start moving away in the mean time, like I can't fend them off physically as I'm reaching for my weapon, and so on. That's a very arbitrary and extreme thing to assume.

Peper spray has two kind of ejection tipes:
a) A stream of foam / gel - for indoor use
b) Gas / cone - wide area gas cloud with out any aiming. You can basically build up a wall of gas they won't come thru. Aye u take a dose as well, but quite light dose compared to the other side.

Way more useful than a gun.

basics explained

I've had the opportunity to shoot it, get a load of it myself and been trained by riot police on OC usage. I keep around a OC made of natural peppers with gas / cone ejection. Natural peppers unlike lab made chemicals don't dissolve well in cold water. Hence it's a bitch to wash off - you need to apply warm water to burning skin. Gas makes it excellent for use against multiple targets.

If you look at the conic blast in the video, it went out 3 feet, and it even said in the video that it has a high chance of getting on yourself. By the time someone is 3 feet away from me, they could stab me or shoot me and not be hindered. Pepper spray is painful, it doesn't automatically incapacitate someone. So, if you're on top of someone, stabbing them 10 times, and 5 seconds later you're collapsing on the ground from the pain, the guy getting stabbed is still stabbed. The guy getting shot is still shot. If you can't close 30 feet before the guy shoots you, the pepper spray was pointless. Essentially, by the time it becomes useful, by the time I've hit them in the eye or it starts to set in, they've already done whatever it is they're trying to do, to me.

You still have to draw it an aim it, as well (unless you really think that pointing the nozzle at yourself will spray the bad guy, right?), and it's not much better than a gun, in many ways it's worse since you have to hit a very small target to be effective. If my gun went off and hit someone in the hand, arm, leg etc. they're probably going to surrender or be stunned immediately. If I hit them anywhere in the Torso they're likely going down immediately. With pepper spray it isn't going to do much. You'll get splashback, but it's only going to be about as much as what you're getting on yourself. If the splash effect alone is truly enough to incapacitate them, then it will incapacitate you, too, and that leaves you open to other attackers, or even the primary attacker considering, you'll be the first to get it.


Even if you managed to put up a wall they can't come through, they could just run around to the other side.

Don't get me wrong, I like pepper spray, but it's really only useful against unarmed attackers. If someone's able to take you down in seconds or is at a distance with a gun, pepper spray is effectively useless. The only possible thing that could compete with a gun is riot spray. The problem with it is it's too big to practically carry around, often illegal, and has so much splashback that you often have to wear protective equipment for it to be useful.


3-15 foot range. 7 seconds of use. Have to hit them in the eye. Can't be reloaded. It's objectively not as good as a gun. The target will be moving, they'll be at a distance and they'll be at a longer range than me, if they have a gun. Cover or even most forms of concealment would render the pepper spray completely useless.

Even a standard 9mm pistol can be reloaded, holds 15-18 rounds, can hit them pretty much anywhere, and has an effective range of 30 feet, and a maximum range of about 100 to 150 feet, for the average marksmen. If someone is up against me with a pistol, I don't want pepper spray. The only way a true area of effect weapon like pepper spray would be useful is if I threw it, like a riot control canister. And even those don't often deploy quickly. I'd have to pull the fuze, throw it, wait a couple of seconds, by then they could have moved or attacked me. It also wouldn't be useful in Close quarters.


We might have to agree to disagree but, surely you can realize that it still needs to be aimed, right? I mean, a shotgun has a spread shot too, but if you just pointed it any which way, it still would miss the target. And the shorter range isn't going to be particularly helpful against most weapons, like a gun.

Furthermore, it has to hit them in their eyes, or at least their face, to be effective. So, a shotgun that you have to hit someone in the face with, with a range of 3-15 feet, that's only got a few shots and can't be reloaded, seems kind of worse than a normal gun.

[Alyster]

Okay, I'm not going round and round with you. 

 

Buy a gun, pull that on someone. See how it ends. 

 

Or alternatively use an OC on yourself and see how well you move. If you find the sink to wash yourself on your own you're a hero. 

 

Edit: PS. Don't go under the shower after being sprayed. The balls will burn really bad. 

Edited by Alyster, 02 November 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[the rebel]

Or alternatively use an OC on yourself and see how well you move. If you find the sink to wash yourself on your own you're a hero. 
 
Edit: PS. Don't go under the shower after being sprayed. The balls will burn really bad. 

How long it lasts without water?

As for your edit, that reminds me of a prank where you put chilli powder on the entrance to male rest rooms.

[Alyster]

Or alternatively use an OC on yourself and see how well you move. If you find the sink to wash yourself on your own you're a hero. 
 
Edit: PS. Don't go under the shower after being sprayed. The balls will burn really bad. 

How long it lasts without water?

 

OC - depends on the dose and chemical element, but you won't open your eyes for 30min min. at least. With out water, it's hell for many hours.  But really depends which chemical element and how strong it is. If you get to more high end products then you really need to read and understand the chemicals behind it. You can get stuff that dissolves in cold water, has different effect times (strength) and so on. Although most important is to understand how your personal unit burst the OC: gas spray or gel/foam. AKA do I want to use it indoors question. 

 

But basically all of them give you more time than needed. 

 

CS (tear gas basic agent) - 5 minutes max, don't recommend it, as it's not very effective. Riot control use it though because you can deploy it with mix of water. It's the sort of agent you can fun around with at bachelor parties, while OC can actually melt contact lenses. 

Edited by Alyster, 02 November 2015 - 09:10 AM.

[Manoka]

Okay, I'm not going round and round with you. 

 

Buy a gun, pull that on someone. See how it ends. 

 

Or alternatively use an OC on yourself and see how well you move. If you find the sink to wash yourself on your own you're a hero. 

 

Edit: PS. Don't go under the shower after being sprayed. The balls will burn really bad. 

Objectively, hundreds of thousands of people defend themselves with guns annually in the U.S. So, if they were so horrible or my arm would automatically break when using one, I can't imagine why it's so popular...