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Obama Authorizes "Targeted Airstrikes" in Iraq on ISIS


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#1 King Biscuit

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 10:00 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t1





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#2 Thrash

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 10:54 AM

Yup, and ISIS has responded by calling for attacks on US interests worldwide.

 

They're also probably going to open that dam they control.

 

:obama:



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#3 Von

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 11:33 AM

LOL.. it's all a big movie seen, just sit back and watch, targeted probably means shooting at some sand pebbles in the desert and ISIS retaliation probably means killing more Arab Christians and Shia.  :popcorn: .. nothing for us to worry about here.



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#4 King Biscuit

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 04:25 PM

LOL.. it's all a big movie seen, just sit back and watch, targeted probably means shooting at some sand pebbles in the desert and ISIS retaliation probably means killing more Arab Christians and Shia.  :popcorn: .. nothing for us to worry about here.

 

ISIS isn't just in Iraq remember?

Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

Yeah, airstrikes in 2 countries.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...syria.html?_r=0

http://www.israelnat...ews.aspx/183777

http://www.independe...an-9648009.html

 

Oh yeah that.

 

Let's call it 3 with Lebanon and make it a day.

So we, the US, can do this to "protect our interests and citizens et. al.", but REAGAN BE DAMNED if we let Putin claim to do the same in Ukraine.

Just like my dear Ma used to tell me,

"Do as i say, not as I do."

 

Hezbollah/The Kurds/Assad (with Iranian help) need to kick ISIS the fuck out of their countries.

Period.

Paragraph.

It won't be pretty, but it's nessasary.

"Targeted Strikes" do nothing to encourage stability.

The above mentioned getting their shit together and taking out ISIS would do a whole lot more for the region than us getting involved.

 

[ninja] Oh yeah, they are killing more than just Shias and Christians. Thousands of other minorities are being slaughtered just as readily.



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#5 Manoka

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:05 PM

ISIS already plans to kill all these people anyways. 

 

At least this way, we're actually going on our way to stop them. 



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#6 Mydas

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:48 PM

They're also probably going to open that dam they control.

 

Doubtful.  They are actually trying to create a state, and it is difficult to do that when you flood your future capital under 5m of water.  There are several cruel things IS does, but flooding Baghdad will probably not be one.



#7 TheDogMan

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 09:00 PM

So we, the US, can do this to "protect our interests and citizens et. al.", but REAGAN BE DAMNED if we let Putin claim to do the same in Ukraine.
Just like my dear Ma used to tell me,e
"Do as i say, not as I do."


There's a moral difference involved here. Although they both have to do with national interest, it's easier to get behind the USA because of the moral factor involved. ISIS is a recognized terrorist group that kills innocent people for religious purposes (the worst possible purpose) while Ukraine is a sovereign, established nation that is trying to change the direction of their nation. Russia is backing terrorism in Ukraine secretly, most likely, while The USA is opposing them in the Middle East. I believe that all terrorism should be handled by a UN type military force and not by a government that is fundamentally theocratic as this makes religious persecution a dangerous thing for minorities.

Edited by TheDogMan, 08 August 2014 - 09:01 PM.


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#8 Thrash

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 09:08 PM

How exactly is Russia backing terrorism in the Ukraine? I didn't know they decided to start supporting the Ukrainian government.



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#9 TheDogMan

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 09:25 PM

Manoka pointed out a few reasons as to how these Rebels may be Russianbacked. Maybe they're not supporting separatists directly, but they're definitely not backing Ukranian govt.

Edit: I do clump the Pro Russian rebels along with any other terrorist. Mostly because I hate Russian leaders and pro Russians in general.

Edited by TheDogMan, 08 August 2014 - 09:30 PM.


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#10 Mydas

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 11:14 PM

Since the current situation in the Middle East is a topic near and dear to my heart, let me address some things before this topic progresses.  Some points are just addressing annoyances, others address blatantly false info.

 

1) It is IS, not ISIS or ISIL or DAESH.  On 29 June a Caliphate was declared, with Caliph Ibrahim (Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi) as its head.  Following this proclamation they became the Islamic State or IS.

 

(This next bit is not directly related but I think its interesting so I included it)

The vast majority of muslims doubt the caliphate's legitimacy.  This is significant due to the following passage in the Quran,

 

"God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will make them Khulifa on earth, even as He caused [some of] those who lived before them to become Khulifa; and that, of a certainty, He will firmly establish for them the religion which He has been pleased to bestow on them; and that, of a certainty, He will cause their erstwhile state of fear to be replaced by a sense of security [seeing that] they worship Me [alone], not ascribing divine powers to aught beside Me. But all who, after [having understood] this, choose to deny the truth – it is they, they who are truly iniquitous!" [24:55] (Surah Al-Nur, Verse 55)

 

Essentially, all devout Muslims must swear allegiance to the Caliphate, if one exists.  All Muslims acknowledge the Rashidun Caliphate as legitimate, but most of those following (with the exception of the Fatimid Caliphate) are recognized only by the Sunnis.  Sunnis believe the Caliph must be elected by the Ummah, while the Shia believe the Caliph must be of the blood of the Prophet.  In the proclamation of the Caliphate, IS attempts to address these requirements by stating Abu Bakr was elected and he is a Sayeed.

 

With all of the above I'm speaking in generalities, of course, but if you want a more in depth discussion on the historic roots of what constitutes a caliphate, check out http://www.reddit.co..._and_an/cipfoud http://www.reddit.co...medieval_islam/ and http://www.reddit.co...chism_become_a/

 

2) IS will try to destroy Baghdad.  They want it as their future capital, they will not destroy it or Mosul.  The media saying they could is simply fearmongering.

 

3) IS and JAN are US supported, in an attempt to overthrow Assad.  This is just garbage.  The US supports the FSA, not JAN or IS.  No US support has ever gone to IS or JAN (except the material they captured from FSA and IA).  I understand people think this since they group all Syrian rebels together, but nothing could be further from the truth.  The Syrian rebels are a very diverse group and the US have been very selective about who gets weapons and support.

 

4) The Kurds have some sort of powerful army that could defeat IS.  I'll just quote Raduev, since he said it better than I could, "Acording to the KRG the peshmerga is a huge well funded well equipped fighting force that consists of invincible supermen. In reality they are a sectarian militia(there isn't 1 peshmerga in iraq, there's the puk peshmerga whose officers are appointed for tribal reasons and for their connections to iran, not talent, and there is the bigger kdp peshmerga whose officers are appointed for their connections to the barzani clan and turkish intelligence, these two peshmergas spend far more time bitching about each other than they do fighting) with hardly any hardware. Iraqi Army got all the new and shiny shit, KRG only has a fleet of ancient t55s, of which only half is probably operational. And as the last month showed, the peshmerga is as incompetent as the iraqi army. Isis is 20km away from their capital in erbil now, go figure. They might as well occupy iraqi kurdistan before they storm baghdad."



#11 TheDogMan

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 11:27 PM

Allahu Akbar.

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#12 King Biscuit

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 12:45 PM

Since the current situation in the Middle East is a topic near and dear to my heart, let me address some things before this topic progresses.  Some points are just addressing annoyances, others address blatantly false info.

 

1) It is IS, not ISIS or ISIL or DAESH.  On 29 June a Caliphate was declared, with Caliph Ibrahim (Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi) as its head.  Following this proclamation they became the Islamic State or IS.

 

(This next bit is not directly related but I think its interesting so I included it)

The vast majority of muslims doubt the caliphate's legitimacy.  This is significant due to the following passage in the Quran,

 

"God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will make them Khulifa on earth, even as He caused [some of] those who lived before them to become Khulifa; and that, of a certainty, He will firmly establish for them the religion which He has been pleased to bestow on them; and that, of a certainty, He will cause their erstwhile state of fear to be replaced by a sense of security [seeing that] they worship Me [alone], not ascribing divine powers to aught beside Me. But all who, after [having understood] this, choose to deny the truth – it is they, they who are truly iniquitous!" [24:55] (Surah Al-Nur, Verse 55)

 

Essentially, all devout Muslims must swear allegiance to the Caliphate, if one exists.  All Muslims acknowledge the Rashidun Caliphate as legitimate, but most of those following (with the exception of the Fatimid Caliphate) are recognized only by the Sunnis.  Sunnis believe the Caliph must be elected by the Ummah, while the Shia believe the Caliph must be of the blood of the Prophet.  In the proclamation of the Caliphate, IS attempts to address these requirements by stating Abu Bakr was elected and he is a Sayeed.

 

With all of the above I'm speaking in generalities, of course, but if you want a more in depth discussion on the historic roots of what constitutes a caliphate, check out http://www.reddit.co..._and_an/cipfoud http://www.reddit.co...medieval_islam/ and http://www.reddit.co...chism_become_a/

 

2) IS will try to destroy Baghdad.  They want it as their future capital, they will not destroy it or Mosul.  The media saying they could is simply fearmongering.

 

3) IS and JAN are US supported, in an attempt to overthrow Assad.  This is just garbage.  The US supports the FSA, not JAN or IS.  No US support has ever gone to IS or JAN (except the material they captured from FSA and IA).  I understand people think this since they group all Syrian rebels together, but nothing could be further from the truth.  The Syrian rebels are a very diverse group and the US have been very selective about who gets weapons and support.

 

4) The Kurds have some sort of powerful army that could defeat IS.  I'll just quote Raduev, since he said it better than I could, "Acording to the KRG the peshmerga is a huge well funded well equipped fighting force that consists of invincible supermen. In reality they are a sectarian militia(there isn't 1 peshmerga in iraq, there's the puk peshmerga whose officers are appointed for tribal reasons and for their connections to iran, not talent, and there is the bigger kdp peshmerga whose officers are appointed for their connections to the barzani clan and turkish intelligence, these two peshmergas spend far more time bitching about each other than they do fighting) with hardly any hardware. Iraqi Army got all the new and shiny shit, KRG only has a fleet of ancient t55s, of which only half is probably operational. And as the last month showed, the peshmerga is as incompetent as the iraqi army. Isis is 20km away from their capital in erbil now, go figure. They might as well occupy iraqi kurdistan before they storm baghdad."

 

Now that's what I call a response.

Well done.

 

At any rate, I'm sure blowing up some artillary and a convoy won't stop the IS from expanding elsewhere.

I wonder what would happen if they took a crack at an Iranian city....



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#13 Manoka

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 02:04 PM

I abhor violence, but it seems as if the best option when dealing with ISIS is to physically prevent them from achieving their objective. I doubt diplomacy will work, or that they can be reasoned with. 

 

Unfortunately that means war, and bombing the crap out of them. 


Edited by Manoka, 09 August 2014 - 02:04 PM.


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#14 Thrash

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 03:16 PM

Here comes the warmonger apologist Manoka



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#15 King Biscuit

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:51 PM

Unfortunately that means war, and bombing the crap out of them. 

 

No.

It means the Middle East needs to get over their shit, unite, and kill the IS.

Surgical strikes will not end the violence, and neither will our soldiers.



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#16 Redezra

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:05 PM

I find it all rather fascinating that the IS is trying to put together an actual caliphate that assumably outranks the others in legitimacy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I don't think combating this situation right now is a good idea. I think we should cut all ties (and that's all ties, I'm looking at you Israel), and let the situation sort itself out. Without the constant interferance by greater world powers, the Arabic nations will have to work with eachother to overcome these problems. That, or they'll eventually be all worked into a greater fighting force, that will be a single, clear opponent to deal with.

 

 

And we all know that we're all very good at hitting a single enemy target rather than a seething insurgent clusterfuck.



#17 King Biscuit

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:38 PM

"Do as i say, not as I do."

 

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

 



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#18 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:42 PM

The United States is essentially in a no-win situation here.  By all accounts, these ISIS characters are bad news.  They are so extreme that even Hezbollah and Hamas consider them extreme.  I listened to an interesting NPR piece about them.  The short version:  They came from nowhere and within two years had become one of the primary actors in the Syrian civil war, controlling more territory than anyone but Assad himself.  And they are the fanatic's fanatics, practicing an especially strict form of Wahhabism, the Sunni sect that dominates Saudi Arabia.  There have been atrocities, and there will be more.

 

And what of the Kurds?  The Kurds, the only actors who, by all accounts, have behaved with integrity and professionalism in a region dominated by ethno-religious madness and petrowars.  The United States has betrayed them twice now; I do not think it is in our interests to betray them again. 

 

So what is the United States to do?  We have vested economic and military interests in the region, and for a decade have expended a tremendous amount of blood and treasure "securing" Iraq and Afghanistan.  Are we to let it fall to extremists who make the Taliban look like the Italian Army?  Is that in our interests?  On the other hand, do we really want to spill more American blood, and spend more American money (read: borrow more from the banks).  Is THAT in our interests?

 

In my opinion, it is not in the interests of the United States, or really anybody, for ISIS to become an established power in the region.  If I were president I would want a detailed tactical assessment of the situation and what it would take to rout them.  I would not want to put American "boots on the ground," as they say, but air support, reconnaisance, intel, drone strikes, etc., would all be on the table.  Preferably it would be coordinated with a joint force of our regional allies, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, taking the lead on the ground.  In exchange for securing their support I would officially tell Israel to CUT THE SHIT and remove their forces from the Occupied Territories.  I am not prepared to fight WW3 over Israel.

I am not privy to the tactical details of the situation.  Perhaps it is possible that airstrikes can wreak havoc with the Islamic State's forces.  But even if that is the case, what then?  The Obama administration, like it's predecessor, has no endgame here.  What if airstrikes don't work?  And if they do work, who takes over then?  The Iraqi army that cut and run?  Yeah, that ought to inspire confidence.

 

As president, I would also drop the United States' official position that Iraq remain a unitary state.  The Kurds deserve their own nation.  The Turks won't like it, but I'm sure we can do something to appease them.  And, in point of fact, the Turks cannot be unaware of the closeness of the threat.  They might welcome a well-armed Kurdistan as a buffer from the Islamic State.

 

The White House is faced with an almost impossible situation.  Nobody wants to get involved militarily in the Middle East again just when we were pulling out.  But it looks like exactly what many of the pundits (myself included) said would happen way back when in the heady days of the invasion of Baghdad.  The Iraqi regime cannot survive without support.  Which brings me to the third thing I'd do as president:

 

Make nice with Iran.  The American-Iranian Cold War needs to end.  If that means the United States formally apologizing for the overthrow of Mossadegh, so be it.  I am a president willing to admit my country has made mistakes, and accept responsibility for them.  I would only make this agreement if, in exchange, the Iranians agreed to issue a formal apology for the Iranian Hostage Crisis of 1980-81.  I think they would agree to this.  I would normalize relations with them.

 

iraq_ethnic_1978.jpg

 

Ultimately my goal would be to break Iraq into its constituent parts:  1) An independent Kurdistan in the North; 2) a nominally independent rump Iraq in the South, consisting of the Shi'ite-dominated region of the country, which would be an Iranian satellite state; 3) a jointly-occupied Sunni region in the center-West of the country, consisting of territory currently comprising the Islamic State, which would be under Arab League and/or UN administration, with occupying troops from the major Arab powers, i.e. Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia.  The future of this region would be negotiated.  Should it become an independent state?  Integrate with one or more neighbors?  TBD.

 

But something tells me Obama won't do what I would do.  He is a bit of a cunt like that.



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#19 Manoka

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:42 PM

I think it has more to do with not letting ISIS take over.

 

Letting them "sort it out", that is allowing 10's of thousands to die assuming they do manage to create a brutal regime, doesn't seem acceptable. If there's a potential ISIS could kill many more or take over, we need to at least stop them, even if we let other things get sorted out. 


Edited by Manoka, 09 August 2014 - 10:42 PM.


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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:50 PM

ISIS are bad actors, I think we are all in agreement on that.  The question is to what extent are we prepared to do something about it? 

 

For now, the Obama administration is taking a low-risk, two-pronged approach:  1.) Air strikes, almost certain to be largely drone strikes; and 2) Arm the Kurds.  Whether this will be sufficient remains to be seen, but my sense is that it is highly doubtful.  ISIS is by all accounts a highly effective fighting force.  It will take a large-scale ground assault to rout them.

 

I do not believe the White House intends to get the United States involved in another ground war in the Middle East.  But that doesn't mean it won't happen anyway.  Unless they pull something out of their sleeve (still a possibility — there are likely many factors to which we are not privy), it looks almost inevitable.



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