120 replies to this topic

[Shotgun Willy]

So, wow... Even though it turned out to be a fake gun, it's still quite a scare. Now I have a general idea of what it must've been like in Austin exactly 1 month ago. I have to admit, getting a message from our Code Maroon alert system saying "Sighting of armed subject at Rudder Tower. SEEK SAFE SHELTER until further notice." was quite a wake-up call, even though it took until just recently to hit me. It could've just as easily been a real gun, rather than a rubber replica... It almost seems surreal....

heh, I guess I just needed to vent a little. Thank god it was only just a bad joke or something like that....


Reference: http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/Gunm ... 43448.html

Well, I guess it makes for a good drill anyway. And I just know that the whole "Students for Carry Conceal on Campus" movement will be picking up steam after this. That might not be a bad thing, though. I suppose it's subjective...

[m3g4tr0n]

Damn.

[Invicta]

That sounds awful, I'm sorry. :-/

on a side note...

Concealed carry on campus is crazy. But then I'm against concealed carry permits across the board; if you aren't military or police then your handgun damn well should be visible, or you shouldn't be carrying it. On the other hand, I'm also for heavy restrictions on hand gun ownership. Not BLANKET restrictions, but heavy restrictions.

[nicktheww2fanatic]

I am all for concealed carry on campus, if the nutjobs/fanatics have them, we should to.. Self Defense man...

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Let's not lose sight of something here: If concealed carry was allowed on campus, odds are someone would have shot that guy with the rubber gun.

Several years ago I had spent the day shooting with a friend. On the way I home I stopped at a store. A man came walking around the corner holding what appeared to be a rifle. He was aiming it at people, making them scatter. My very first instinct was to grab for the gun that had been on my hip all day. It wasn't there, of course. I had locked back up when we were done shooting. But if it had been there I absolutely, unquestioningly, and unhesitatingly would have shot that guy.

It was a pool cue. He was just some drunk guy fooling around.

[nicktheww2fanatic]

somewhat true jorost, if you are waving a fake gun around a school, getting shot should be par for the course. Honestly though, you need to learn enough about guns to not make those mistakes if you carry guns.

[Shotgun Willy]

Well, people having fake guns on campus is NOT unusual, given the Corps of Cadets. They carry fake guns with them on their runs all the time and members of the Drill teams will sometimes also take their guns with them. Keep in mind that this guy was in the most heavily trafficked area on campus and walked through the most heavily trafficked building, and only one person, a bus driver who was likely a couple dozen yards away, freaked out enough to call it in. The thing is that this guy wasn't a cadet. No, he was just a normal student who had rented a hard rubber AK-47 from the Military Sciences building (yes, apparently you can do that) and either didn't have a big enough backpack, or didn't have the common sense to put it up. Most of the people I've talked to place the blame for the commotion solely on the bus driver for reporting it when it apparently should've been obvious that it wasn't a threat, for some reason I can't comprehend. I personally think the bus driver was spot on. People carrying around fake guns that don't look fake shouldn't just be ignored. What about when it's a real gun and a real shooter? Not all shooters are gonna just start shooting randomly after all...

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

somewhat true jorost, if you are waving a fake gun around a school, getting shot should be par for the course. Honestly though, you need to learn enough about guns to not make those mistakes if you carry guns.

Do you mean me or "you" in general? Because I grew up around guns. If I had shot that guy I would have been entirely justified, I suspect. At least in a legal sense. There were certainly enough people around to corroborate my story. But, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm a pretty decent shot (or at least, I was at the time). If I had to lay odds I'd guess that I would have killed the guy. Whether it proved to be a "good" shooting or not after the fact, I think that still would have weighed on me.

And it doesn't sound like this guy was "waving it around." It sounds like he was just carrying it in his backpack. Now, that in and of itself was a very foolish thing to do, especially in today's climate. But I'm not sure it would be a mistake worth getting killed over.

[nicktheww2fanatic]

I mean a "you" in general. If you are going to shoot, shoot to kill. True, that would be a foolish way to get shot, however, you would have done nothing wrong, at least in my mind. The guy was being stupid, if you can carry a gun (fake or not), you should have to be responsible enough to understand that the method he used was absolutely terrible.

[Haflinger]

You should always shoot to disable, i.e. for the chest. There's a much better chance of the target surviving a chest wound than a head wound, BUT ALSO you have a much better chance of hitting the target and taking him/her down quickly if you aim for the chest.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I aim for the pants, trying to make them fall down. My target is always hilarity.

[Learz]

I support concealed carry on campus.
Mainly because I was in a similar situation to you, Willy. My campus had a "fake shooter" appear and locked down the whole campus. It was like watching the Keystone cops in action. What made it worse was that I literally had a front row seat to the whole thing, as I was in the library at the time and got the watch the cops at work.
If you can call it that.

I have nothing against the cops, really I don't. But let me be honest here: If you had given me a couple kindergartners and about 15 minutes to teach them, they would have done far better then the cops in searching and locking down the campus. It was... ridiculous. I would have had a better chance against a shooter if I was blindfolded and armed with a bent spork (which, by the way, is actually illegal on my campus).

Meh.

And I'm not talking about just giving guns to students, or other misconceptions. Same laws apply, minimum 21, passing background checks, getting fingerprinted, no arrest record, applying for a permit, getting it granted, waiting for the paperwork, purchasing the weapon, passing those checks, etc. As it turns out, you'd be about 22 (in other words, a senior or about to graduate) before you can actually get a gun. This is assuming people actually want a gun, and pass whatever additional requirements are added by the campus. Such as qualifying training and approval from campus security. Tops, you're talking maybe 5% of the undergrad body that will be armed, trained, and approved. Which is alot more than can be said for the police force.

But, that's not going to happen anytime soon. Might as well get back to sitting in a box with only one exit waiting for the police to save me. Which, by the way, have managed to reduce their response time to an astounding 4 minutes. From the time they get a call. About an incident. Such as someone emptying a mag into a escapeless room full of people.

grumble mumble grumble. I hate being defenseless.

[Invicta]

Those are all potential arguments for being armed on campus, which I also disagree with, but that's an entirely different issue. That doesn't explain at all why concealed carry on campus (or anywhere for that matter) is a good idea.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

A well regulated militia. That's the key phrase. When the 2nd Amendment was written, the United States had no standing army to speak of, and was under imminent threat of attack by the mightiest empire in the world. It was necessary for citizens to be armed and ready. That is no longer the case. We now have a professional army. one that just happens to be the most powerful fighting force in the history of mankind. Any foreign threat from which they cannot protect us is unlikely to be stymied by one guy with a concealed carry permit. We also have police, FBI, and various other law enforcement agencies to deal with crime.

You think the police mishandled the situation? I can't say because I wasn't there. But I can say that a bunch of armed civilian yahoos is hardly likely to make the situation better.

You say you're "defenseless." From what? Armed nuts on campus? Do you have any idea how incredibly small the odds are that you are going to fall victim to that kind of violence? You have a better chance of being struck by lightning. You have a much better chance of dying in a car crash. As far as I am concerned any gun enthusiast who doesn't wear their seatbelt is a hypocrite. And, not for nothing, if gun possession was restricted to police and military, then those nuts wouldn't have been able to shoot anyone up in the first place.

Carrying guns on campus is a recipe for producing a lot more dead college students.

[Learz]

Those are all potential arguments for being armed on campus, which I also disagree with, but that's an entirely different issue. That doesn't explain at all why concealed carry on campus (or anywhere for that matter) is a good idea.

Assume, for the next 5 minutes, the police can't protect you. Who is going to defend you? Honestly?
I live in a bad part of Buffalo. Homicides/assaults happen weekly, if not daily around me. The cops could care less. I arm myself to make sure I survive life, heh. Granted, the cops do arrest some people, have ongoing investigations, etc, but really, when something bad goes down, it's only going to be me and my attacker there. I'd rather I walked away instead of him. This is from personal experience.

You think the police mishandled the situation? I can't say because I wasn't there. But I can say that a bunch of armed civilian yahoos is hardly likely to make the situation better.

I disagree. The whole reason the job of "police" exists is because it is assumed that if everyday people didn't have to worry about defending themselves, training with a gun, and so on, life would be better. And it's true. Life *would* be alot easier if I didn't have to worry about that stuff. But guess what? The police, especially in my area, are lacking in that very qualification. They can't protect me. I have to rely on myself, because I'm going to be the only one there. If I, and perhaps some other concerned citizens, wish to undergo rigorous training and qualification to become a pseudo-police force, and are authorized by the state to protect ourselves and each other, so much the better.

You say you're "defenseless." From what? Armed nuts on campus? Do you have any idea how incredibly small the odds are that you are going to fall victim to that kind of violence? You have a better chance of being struck by lightning. You have a much better chance of dying in a car crash. As far as I am concerned any gun enthusiast who doesn't wear their seatbelt is a hypocrite. And, not for nothing, if gun possession was restricted to police and military, then those nuts wouldn't have been able to shoot anyone up in the first place.

Small odds? Ha! If you take averages across the nation, yeah. If you take averages in high violence areas, I doubt it.
Personally, I've been attacked twice, both times I was unarmed. I had taken self defense training and managed to get away in one piece. I was in a University bookstore when a guy came in firing with a shotgun. I was coming home one night and saw a bunch of people jump someone else and stab him several times, about 40 feet away. And as mentioned, I was in the front lines, if you will, during a full blown university lockdown. Police were coming in with body armor and assault rifles and searching entire buildings. Pretty terribly, I should add

If I could swap that with getting hit by lighting, that would be nice.

But anyway, the pros and cons of restrictive guns laws which are supposed to eliminate firearms have been hashed and rehashed before. So no need to go into them here. However, I'd rather be armed and facing an armed opponent then be unarmed facing an armed opponent. Because, let's be honest, outlawing guns isn't going to get rid of them, as empirical data supports.

Carrying guns on campus is a recipe for producing a lot more dead college students.

Perhaps. But why do mass shootings happen in gun free zones?


*EDIT* I feel I should mention that this isn't meant to be argumentive
It's just based on my own experiences, I would rather have extra protection throughout the day. However, depending on your geographical location and surroundings, you may not feel the same way, which is ok. I would just like to have the freakin' option of protecting myself!

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I just think this whole culture of fear, "I need to defend myself" mindset is not only ridiculous but incredibly destructive. Yes, there are high crime areas, but here's a crazy idea: You don't have to go to those areas.

The number of gun deaths in the United States has risen in direct proportion to the growth of gun ownership. In other words, the more people have guns -- even legally -- the more people die from guns. It's pretty simple.

You think it's a good idea to let college students carry guns? This is the same age group that pays twice as much for car insurance because of their statistical lack of responsibility and poor judgment. Now you want to give them guns? I don't know about you, but if I was on a college campus I would not feel particularly reassured by the thought that the same frat-boy yahoos who got drunk and threw a couch off the roof of their dorm last night might be walking around packing heat today.

The gun lobby likes to say that "if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns." That's right. And then you can arrest and incarcerate them for possessing those guns. Most other developed countries have far more restrictive gun laws than we do. And guess what? They also have far less gun violence. You don't hear about people shooting up college campuses in Sweden very often, now do you?

[Thrash]

That's right. And then you can arrest and incarcerate them for possessing those guns.

How about they just enforce the laws that are already on the books?

[Invicta]

Assume, for the next 5 minutes, the police can't protect you. Who is going to defend you? Honestly?
I live in a bad part of Buffalo. Homicides/assaults happen weekly, if not daily around me. The cops could care less. I arm myself to make sure I survive life, heh. Granted, the cops do arrest some people, have ongoing investigations, etc, but really, when something bad goes down, it's only going to be me and my attacker there. I'd rather I walked away instead of him. This is from personal experience.

Again this has nothing to do with CONCEALED carry. CONCEALED.

I haven't even made an argument yet, I'm just waiting for somebody to make one for concealed carry rather than blanket arguments for carrying generally.


I'll just throw out there, since I can't resist, that most of the criminals who had handguns in D.C. during the gun ban years stole them from people with legally registered handguns in VA (a state with such weak gun laws as to be completely pointless). VA was hemorrhaging guns into D.C. Most evidence indicates that the failure was the result of VAs horrendously lax laws, not the strict ones in the District. That makes sense; if law abiding citizens don't own handguns, and gun dealers sell handguns only to police/military, then where are they getting them from? They can't buy them, there is no one to steal them from. The system breaks down when it's not universal. As soon as the state across the border says "handguns are cool!" then it stops working. If your answer to that is that even if all states banned handguns they would still be gotten from the mystical realm known as the "black market" then I have question for you; where does reciprocal response end? The people on the black market can get assault rifles, grenades, RPGs, landmines, etc. Should those things be allowed on campus? When do I get to apply for that on-campus concealed carry permit for my shoulder-mounted missile launcher? The answer to violent crime is fewer available weapons, not more.

As another sidenote, Jor is right, the LAST place I want to see handguns is a college campus. The very absolute dead last. I won't get into it now, but aside from the threat from the students themselves for crying out loud, a lot of people who use handguns for "self defense" end up getting threatened with their own weapon by somebody who actually knows what the hell their doing. That also goes for knives used for "self defense" btw.

The problem with concealed carry specifically is that evidence indicates that when guns deter crime, it's the visual display of the gun that deters crime, not the use of the gun. HIDING the gun doesn't provide the benefit of such deterrance; it means that for all practical purposes the gun provides no benefit until its used, which is heinous. This beside the fact that being able to hide a gun means a greater degree of threat to the people at large. On a college campus, not only do you have a drunk frat-boy with a gun, you have a drunk frat-boy with a concealed gun. I can't think of a bigger recipe for disaster. I cannot think of a single even remotely beneficial thing about allowing concealed carry for non police/military personnel. None whatsover.

[Learz]

@Glen: good points. I was in the "concealed" mentality because in Buffalo is it actually a crime to reveal a firearm in public. Even having the outline of a gun showing through your clothes is illegal.
But yes, open carry, as some interest groups in Texas are pushing for on campus, would make more sense (assuming, of course, you are for carrying on campus ). Also, regarding reciprocal response, I actually ended up in debate club arguing everyone should have their own tactical nuke! Of course, that's an unrealistic tangent, but your point is taken. Firearms are the common weapon today, however, so (again, assuming you're for carrying) firearms would seem to be the logical cutoff.

I just think this whole culture of fear, "I need to defend myself" mindset is not only ridiculous but incredibly destructive. Yes, there are high crime areas, but here's a crazy idea: You don't have to go to those areas.

Sadly, I do. Along with millions of other Americans. But the police sure seem to follow your advice

[note]

You think it's a good idea to let college students carry guns? This is the same age group that pays twice as much for car insurance because of their statistical lack of responsibility and poor judgment. Now you want to give them guns? I don't know about you, but if I was on a college campus I would not feel particularly reassured by the thought that the same frat-boy yahoos who got drunk and threw a couch off the roof of their dorm last night might be walking around packing heat today.

You're generalizing from a sample to the larger population. Look at it this way. I'm an upstanding, law abiding citizen (like the vast majority of students). I carry when not on campus. I don't magically go nuts when stepping onto campus. I'm the same person.

So, I, along with many, many other college students, carry firearms. Off campus. We do it all the time. When we step onto campus, we are the same person, only we disarm. Still the same person. You're viewing this in reverse. Simply because I have a weapon doesn't mean I'm a threat to people. Again, college students ARE armed and carrying, they just can't do it on campus. But they do it everywhere else already. It's not like if we forget to disarm before coming on campus we're going to magically snap and start shooting. We're still the same person, no matter where we are.

The gun lobby likes to say that "if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns." That's right. And then you can arrest and incarcerate them for possessing those guns. Most other developed countries have far more restrictive gun laws than we do. And guess what? They also have far less gun violence. You don't hear about people shooting up college campuses in Sweden very often, now do you?

Nor Switzerland, Finland, Texas, etc. Again, not trying to argue, but data shows both ways if we're comparing countries/states.


*EDIT* Whee! Great walls o' text! I almost never do this, but because I have three midterms on friday I'm looking for excuses to not study. Curse you CN!

[Invicta]

My long-term self defense plan, as a trained (though fairly mediocre) fencer, is to openly carry a smallsword. As soon as I can afford one I'm planning to buy a custom made weapons grade smallsword. Mostly for display in my house/apartment, but also because it would be an effective crime deterrant. Nobody without a gun would mug me, and anyone WITH a gun less than 15 feet away would be at a disadvantage against somebody with a full size sword and the training to use it. Not to mention the element of surprise issue; not many people expect to see an actual sword. Plus, no fear of it accidentally "going off" and killing an innocent passerby. I think things were better when gentlemen were trained in the use of swords and carried them regularly. Ban guns, make sword training mandatory, the world becomes a better (and more exciting!) place.