73 replies to this topic

[Manoka]

Yeah I'm not against border control, I just don't think it should be used to stop people from crossing. Freedom of movement is important; for some reason we've come to believe that countries are like prisons and people should be stopped from escaping them.
 
Still, even if you had immigration controls... There were eight IS terrorists with explosive belts on, a few more with guns. Some of them were born in Paris. Are you really going to keep hundreds of thousands of refugees penned up in desperate conditions in order to stop about three or four terrorists from getting through?
 
The logic on that idea is comparable to this: Two guys from Michigan committed a terrorist act in Oklahoma. Let's prohibit everyone in Michigan from travelling to Oklahoma. Great idea, right?

Far more effective to just stop the guns from getting through. These guys were carrying Kalashnikovs, not exactly the most subtle of weapons. Someone seriously dropped the ball here.

The thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is, it's empty open territory. This kind of thing is daily, not just with terrorists. If hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants can get across annually, what makes you think you can stop smugglers from bringing drugs, guns, anything? There's not anyone there checking the border. 

 

Also, they used explosives. Would stopping the guns from getting through have stopped them from making home made explosives? That did most of the damage, anyways. If anything shooting first scared people off.

 

 

And do you know how many countries they'd have had to go through first? It's at least 6, 7, 8 countries, minimum. Probably more. If they traveled by boat it would be less, but even so, it's a wide empty ocean. People smuggle for a living. You won't stop criminals from getting access to these things. 

 

It's not like criminals are going to choose to go through legal checkpoints. They decide to come in through wherever. There isn't some wall stopping people from crossing, or really anything. They can just walk across empty, unguarded forest or desert, like in virtually every country of the world.

[Thrash]

Haf, do you support militaries having guns? If so, there will always be a gun manufacturer and always a way to get guns into any country no matter how many laws that country tries to make. Period. I'd be in support of a gun ban if it was global, localized is stupid, because it's highly ineffective. But, you need military, so you can't ban guns, so every person should be allowed to have one to defend themselves.

[Haflinger]

The trouble with that theory is that people can't defend themselves. Most people don't know how to use a weapon properly.

 

Now if you're going to go for a global version of Switzerland, I can see an argument there. But do you want to pay for training everyone in how to use a firearm properly?

[He who posts]

Switzerland is great, get a gun, never get the bullets to use it.

[Manoka]

Switzerland is great, get a gun, never get the bullets to use it.

Well, actually people can go and buy bullets from stores so, the government passes out free machine guns, but not bullets. I doubt though mass shooters are so lazy they can't go to the store and buy bullets. Every mass shooter in America has bought both the gun and bullets, and none of them have been fully automatic, so...

[the rebel]

And do you know how many countries they'd have had to go through first? It's at least 6, 7, 8 countries, minimum. Probably more. If they traveled by boat it would be less, but even so, it's a wide empty ocean. People smuggle for a living. You won't stop criminals from getting access to these things.

It's not like criminals are going to choose to go through legal checkpoints. They decide to come in through wherever. There isn't some wall stopping people from crossing, or really anything. They can just walk across empty, unguarded forest or desert, like in virtually every country of the world.

The irony being those weapons would of probably crossed through main border crossings, as the coast is well watched, we aren't in the 40's anymore.

[Manoka]

And do you know how many countries they'd have had to go through first? It's at least 6, 7, 8 countries, minimum. Probably more. If they traveled by boat it would be less, but even so, it's a wide empty ocean. People smuggle for a living. You won't stop criminals from getting access to these things.

It's not like criminals are going to choose to go through legal checkpoints. They decide to come in through wherever. There isn't some wall stopping people from crossing, or really anything. They can just walk across empty, unguarded forest or desert, like in virtually every country of the world.

The irony being those weapons would of probably crossed through main border crossings, as the coast is well watched, we aren't in the 40's anymore.

Pirates are kind of a huge problem in France for the very problem that it's hard for them to watch the coast. 

[the rebel]

I want what Manoka is taking, I've got to see his proof as I want a laugh.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Yeah I'm not against border control, I just don't think it should be used to stop people from crossing. Freedom of movement is important; for some reason we've come to believe that countries are like prisons and people should be stopped from escaping them.

 

Sure, some people think that. But most countries don't restrict people from leaving, they restrict them from entering. And that is perfectly reasonable. Think of it like your home. You have the right to restrict anyone you want from entering your home (except for police with a legitimate warrant, etc.). But you do not have the right to keep people in your home against their will.

[Haflinger]

My home isn't a country. I don't really need ten million square kilometres of private space to myself. That would be a pretty big living room.

 

My country is more like a street. I don't have the right to stop people from walking down the street by my home, and what's more I shouldn't.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Your country is your nation's home, and that nation has the collective right to decide who can and cannot enter. I know you disagree with that sentiment, but understand that yours is an extreme and unusual position.

[Redezra]

It's also an extremely naive position.

[Manoka]

I want what Manoka is taking, I've got to see his proof as I want a laugh.

Honestly? I have no idea what you said. I did read proof in their somewhere. Can't be sure if you spelled it right, though. 

 

So, here's some pictures of the France Italy border. Truthfully, they were picked at random but, the question is, where are the border guards? [1][2] There aren't any. No-ones there. It's just wide empty open land. That's way like 99% of the border with Italy is, and most countries. So, in this wide open empty space, how would anyone know if someone just say, walked across with a machine gun? Hell, even drove across. No-one would ever know. Pretty terrifying, right?

 

I mean, what would stop a nuclear bomb from being driven across, or millions of pounds of drugs...

 

 

France is one of the key leaders in fighting piracy, in large part due to the number of their ships attacked. But, the empty coast is just as barren, if not more so, than the open land of these environments. Just for you, I'll find you some pictures. So, here's some barren coast of France, Not really any thing though, save for a few kiosks along the beach, mostly not run. How would anyone know you aren't a fisherman or just exploring? How would they suspect you had weapons, just by looking at you? Not like they could be in, say crates or boxes or just covered up with a towel or something. I wonder how anyone could get from the coast of Syria to France, in the first place. 

 

It's almost like, it's a wide empty ocean or something and keeping track of every moving part is nigh impossible. It's not like piracy from Syria and such has been a problem recently. It's probs just me being crazy again, what with my "common sense" and "facts" and such...

[the rebel]

I could show you barren coastline of the UK and go look proof of piracy if I was using your naïve logic or I could use common sense and realise that a countries coastline is monitored.

Australia has a huge coastline but for some strange reason every little boat with illegals somehow gets stopped hundreds of miles before they get to the coastline.

It isn't magic its technology.

[Manoka]

You seriously think that every boat is stopped? Even a majority of them?

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I could show you barren coastline of the UK and go look proof of piracy if I was using your naïve logic or I could use common sense and realise that a countries coastline is monitored.

Australia has a huge coastline but for some strange reason every little boat with illegals somehow gets stopped hundreds of miles before they get to the coastline.

It isn't magic its technology.

 

How do you know "every little boat" gets stopped? Maybe we just don't hear about the ones that get through.

[Haflinger]

No large coastline is fully secure.

 

Honestly, this illusion that we can control our borders completely is what strikes me as naive.

[Redezra]

No large coastline is fully secure.

 

Honestly, this illusion that we can control our borders completely is what strikes me as naive.

Hey, Australia manages it.

 

Although our border control is both unethical in the extreme, and powered by our isolation by sea from everywhere else.

[Haflinger]

Do you, really?

 

I was under the impression that Australian police were still arresting drug traffickers selling drugs in places like Melbourne.

[the rebel]

I could show you barren coastline of the UK and go look proof of piracy if I was using your naïve logic or I could use common sense and realise that a countries coastline is monitored.

Australia has a huge coastline but for some strange reason every little boat with illegals somehow gets stopped hundreds of miles before they get to the coastline.

It isn't magic its technology.

How do you know "every little boat" gets stopped? Maybe we just don't hear about the ones that get through.

The English channel is one of the most monitored waterways in the world, last time I checked the amount of ships going through is 40 an hour every hour. With that amount of traffic obsessive monitoring is needed for safety.

If you could sneak through on a boat to the UK then you wouldn't be bothering trying to sneak on to ferries and/or lorries.

There is a reason why illegals and smugglers try to move with and pretend to be travellers, as its easier than trying to fool the Navy and Coastguard.