71 replies to this topic

[Infopowerbroker]

2,753 reasons to get rid of airplanes.



We live in a world where tradegies do happen, and they are saddening experiences.

politicising grief into internet outrage is not always the best answer.

[PrinceVegeta]

I agree with Info.

You can't get rid of everything that causes death because so many of those things that cause it are needed(Airplanes, Machinery, Cars). And if you did get rid of all the guns, people would still obtain them through some illegal cartel or black market. There's only one way to fix it for good, in my opinion. Make people happy. People do this because they're unhappy and go out on the deep end, or develop mental issues along with the unhappiness and it makes them go bat shit crazy. If this country, and many others, were better governed, and more prosperous; better for all people, then people wouldn't really have a reason to kill, rape, steal or anything similar.

It's time to suck it up, and prevent more of this shit from happening. I know how it feels to lose a loved one, I also know the terror of seeing a child die before my eyes. Especially when that child was my own flesh and blood.

[The Dark Empire]

Give teachers guns...or would that cause more problems.

[Infopowerbroker]

Give teachers guns...or would that cause more problems.

From The Other Thread

Israel teacher with weapon protecting students

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

You can get rid of the things that are designed and built to cause death, and which are wholly unnecessary in modern America. Whatever hypothetical threats you think you're defending yourself against are not worth the slaughter of innocents. Might you be the victim of a crime because you don't have your gun? Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. That's the risk you take stepping out the door. But that's the thing -- it's the risk YOU take. Don't gamble children's lives on the off chance that you might get to be a hero someday.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Giving teachers guns would be a terrible idea. They are not law enforcement officers, they are educators. If you're going to go down that path, a better idea would be a police officer in every school. But good luck paying for that.

[King Biscuit]

2,753 reasons to get rid of airplanes.



We live in a world where tradegies do happen, and they are saddening experiences.

politicising grief into internet outrage is not always the best answer.

QFT

[Phate]

Giving teachers guns would be a terrible idea. They are not law enforcement officers, they are educators. If you're going to go down that path, a better idea would be a police officer in every school. But good luck paying for that.

The high schools here have a police officer stationed at each one.

[Chancellor Gunn]

My middle schools and high schools did. I think that all schools should tbh

[Imperial Sparta]

You can get rid of the things that are designed and built to cause death, and which are wholly unnecessary in modern America. Whatever hypothetical threats you think you're defending yourself against are not worth the slaughter of innocents. Might you be the victim of a crime because you don't have your gun? Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. That's the risk you take stepping out the door. But that's the thing -- it's the risk YOU take. Don't gamble children's lives on the off chance that you might get to be a hero someday.

http://usatoday30.us...uder/55782484/1
These kids were inside their home when this happened. An intruder with a gun broke into their home with a 14 year old babysitting his siblings with the assumed intent of robbing the place and proceeded to point the gun at the 14 year old. But because the 14 year old had a gun, a handgun by the way, he was able to shoot the intruder before the guy could fire a shot at him when the intruder raised his gun on him. Assuming this family are law abiding citizens, they would have given their guns away. The intruder on the other hand, clearly not a law abiding citizen, wouldn't have been so honest. Because this family had a gun in their home, it saved the lives of 4 children without killing anyone, as the intruder himself underwent surgery while in critical condition. In the event that the intruder was actually killed, I'd still take that trade off any day of the week. There are crazy people in the world and there always will be. But you take away a family's means of protection because of some psychotic assholes that represent less than 1-5% of the total population, if even that, then you might as well blindfold and tie them with their hands behind their backs and place them in front of a firing line. Guns are capable of doing terrible things, but at the same time, they are also capable of preventing those terrible things or even reducing the damage done, if in the right hands.


Imperial Sparta

[Redezra]

Info, I can't believe someone as rational as I like to believe you are can answer this with such extremist viewpoints.

If planes killed as many people as guns did, you'd have a valid case. Answer is? They don't. Anything that kills this many people is dealt with. The flu, HIV, cancer, heart disease... these are all major killers, and they are all dealt with on an extermination level. We do not want to tolerate their existence, so why do you want to tolerate the existence of such a major killer?

The answer is you irrationally want guns. You enjoy that power. You like to entertain the notion that you are making yourself safer. You are not. It is abundantly clear, whether by the death of the criminal, or the death of victims, the murder of bystanders, or the senseless massacre of children, that guns are doing the exact opposite of keeping you safe.

It is time for your nation to grow up. It is time for you to grow up. You must relinquish your guns if you ever want to be truly safe, criminals be damned.

Criminals in all countries get guns from time to time, and they use them. But the fact that you loathe to acknowledge is; we are still safer than you.

This is possibly the only time in your history that you have a decent semipopular backing. The public opinion could be swayed. The door can be opened. But will you protect your children and step through it?



Up to you really. But remember, everyone else is watching. And we know what the right choice is.

[Haflinger]

2,753 reasons to get rid of airplanes.

People use airplanes to get from one place to another. They are pretty handy tools.

Handguns? Not so much.

[Infopowerbroker]

Info, I can't believe someone as rational as I like to believe you are can answer this with such extremist viewpoints.

If planes killed as many people as guns did, you'd have a valid case. Answer is? They don't. Anything that kills this many people is dealt with. The flu, HIV, cancer, heart disease... these are all major killers, and they are all dealt with on an extermination level. We do not want to tolerate their existence, so why do you want to tolerate the existence of such a major killer?

The answer is you irrationally want guns. You enjoy that power. You like to entertain the notion that you are making yourself safer. You are not. It is abundantly clear, whether by the death of the criminal, or the death of victims, the murder of bystanders, or the senseless massacre of children, that guns are doing the exact opposite of keeping you safe.

It is time for your nation to grow up. It is time for you to grow up. You must relinquish your guns if you ever want to be truly safe, criminals be damned.

Criminals in all countries get guns from time to time, and they use them. But the fact that you loathe to acknowledge is; we are still safer than you.

This is possibly the only time in your history that you have a decent semipopular backing. The public opinion could be swayed. The door can be opened. But will you protect your children and step through it?



Up to you really. But remember, everyone else is watching. And we know what the right choice is.

As this topic continues to go around in circles, I will sum up where I stand.

1) I have a worldview where there is good and evil in the world.
2) I believe that there are some people in the world who will perform evil, regardless of the tools at their disposal.
3) I believe that some people will perform these heinous acts, ones that are terrible, and can only be labled a tragedy.

4) I can agree with the basic principals of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (copied from wikipedia, not my own words)
4a) A person has physiological needs that must be satisfied before anything else (breathing, food, water, sex, sleep, etc.)
4b) Once a person has (4a), their next concern is safety (security of body, employment, resources, morality, family, health, property, etc)
4c) Once a person has (4b), their next concern is love/belonging (friendship, family, sexual intimacy)
4d) Once a person has (4c), their next concern is esteem (self esteem, confidence, achievement, respect of others, respect by others)
4e) Once a person has (4d), their next concern is self-actualization (morality, creativity, spontaneity, lack of prejudice, acceptance of objective facts, etc)

5) A government strives to provide these needs to its citizens. The US also was created with the intent to provide various liberties and freedoms to the citizens.
6) Some people rely on the govermnent to provide for them their needs, some at each level of the hierarchy. [insert the 47% arguments here]

7) While the government provides me with foundations [insert the 'you didn't build that' arguments here], I do not ultimately rely on the government for assistance in my everyday life.
7a) If I am late to work, it is my own fault, not the fault of not having a fancy 8 lane bridge over a river.
7b) If the power goes out in a storm, it is my fault if I don't have a few day's supply of food/water.
7c) If I work hard, I expect to be rewarded/compensated according to my skills, the difficulty of the task at hand, and the quality of the output.
7d) If I take basic measures to protect myself, I expect to be able to react accordingly to a situation that has not been previously prevented or quelled by the government's protective services.

8)I pay a reasonable amount (both in time, labor, and money) to ensure that my nation is defended
9)I also take what I believe to be reasonable steps to ensure my personal safety, as well as proficiency with the tools I use.

10)If something happens to me or my family, I will and acknoledge see the failing(s) of the system. I will also see my personal failure to provide the personal accountability that I hold myself to.

To some people, this is illogical, irrational, and too much work. There are ways that take less effort and it's easier to simply inherit the protections of the system that governs.

For me, I choose to hold myself to a higher standard, and be accountable, both in this life and the afterlife I believe in as part of my worldview.

I tried to put this in steps so that you can see the foundations for what I believe in this, that I am not a "f***ing idiot" (as some people are sorry tell me), but instead just have a different viewpoint on the world.

The internet is not a place for arguments. people make many-pointed arguments, and it's easier to take just one portion and move forward with it, ignoring the valid points that the person has made. In a similar way, the same is true when talking about politics on the internet (Politics is just trying to get a consensus on the priorities of a selected demographic).

For those out there feel strongly on implementing new laws, I can agree that we disagree. This is where I stand, and I have exposed some of my personal beliefs and values. I did not read this over, so there will be typos, and places to pick apart the argument (especially with the nice way I numbered it).

I am leaving this thread, as well as the chat room, and will not be posting in anything other than the theme month threads.

Best of luck, stay civil, and enjoy ripping this post to shreds.

[Chancellor Gunn]

I think IPB put it very well.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

But your "different viewpoint" is selfish, and it's getting children killed. There is no valid reason in 21st century America to own a handgun. I'm not talking about political realities here -- I do not believe for one instant that any of what I am about to say will ever come to pass in our lifetimes. But if it were up to me we'd do it Haf's way. Handguns would no longer be allowed for private ownership. Period. Rifles and shotguns, yes. High capacity capacity? No. Armor piercing? No. We're not living in some post-apocalyptic Mad Max universe, fighting off roving bands of biker cannibals (although many in the gun enthusiast community fervently wish we were; they are also obsessed with zombie apocalypse fantasies). There is a reasonable, rational level of regulation that can be achieved, and has been achieved by many advanced countries where there are still plenty of hunters and sportsmen.

But like I said, it's never going to happen. Realistically the best we can hope for is the closure of the gun show loophole and tighter regulations on magazine capacity, etc. And yes, gun community, you're going to have to take it up the ass a little while on this one. Twenty little kids are dead. And maybe some of that criticism, in some cases, is undeserved (but in many cases it is VERY deserved). Either way it's like Will Munny told Little Bill, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

[Chancellor Gunn]

Do you honestly think a ban on handguns would of stopped this?

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

No one can ever say whether this or that policy could have prevented a specific incident. The murders were committed with handguns, but the perpetrator had a bushmaster carbine in his car, so perhaps he would have used that instead. But if you're asking me whether I believe a ban on handguns would reduce the overall murder rate? Yes.

[Redezra]

IPB, what you do not understand is this:


You can believe whatever you want to believe, but when what you want to believe conflicts with others, beliefs must be discarded, and only solid factual scientific systems can take us forward. Because only in such methodology will we know the truth. And in the truth appears the way forward.

I am fine with politics playing the truth manipulation game. I am very, very good at such things. But I will never disagree that when it comes down to decisions that affect people in the real world, in ways that could harm them, that the truth is the only way forward.


So here's the deal, blue pill for whatever, red pill for saving lives.


Now we have enough knowledge about the world to categorically know that your worldview is at best irrelevant in these circumstances, and at worst that it is entirely erroneous. And as the free flow of information increases, more and more young minds are learning that the world is not aligned with any human belief, but is inherently inhuman. This is a very good thing, because once the thoughts of men are out of the equation, human error vanishes.

It becomes apparent that it is nothing more than human emotion, our capacity to be illogical, that holds onto guns. That holds onto such lethal power in the vain hope that it protects them. Once this belief is broken, everything gets better. My country knows this particular path well, we have tread it.

Now, again, I want to make it clear I don't want to crush your beliefs, or attack who you are, but you hold in your possession an implement that has, and will forever present a threat to people outside of your beliefs. And when that occurs, one must compare the beliefs of many to find a way forward, from the one view that aligns with none of them. The view from reality, what we have proven repeatedly to be true. And the truth is that all guns fundamentally threaten the right of a person to a life. Your beliefs are valid until such time as they threaten another. You agree with this, you hate Bin Laden, who's beliefs threatened lives worldwide. You hate the concept of the Nazis, they threatened the freedoms of everyone they had dominion over, and wished dominion of the world. You are fearful of Islam, who's very belief set is a contravention of nearly all freedoms we westerners enjoy. You are happy to deny these beliefs when they will affect you, and, as is fair, now is the time when your belief must be denied for it affects others.


To be honest, my worldview clashes with yours so horribly, but that's because mine is cynical of everything made of man. I believe good and evil is a construct based on our biology, I believe everything we believe is a construct produced by us. Our own mental prison. A rat race to live our lives in. Outside is formless chaos. And most importantly, I believe that according to our wealth of scientific knowledge, of all that we have physically observed, that my understanding of the universe is the only belief that is true. I feel it is safe to say that I know this is the way the world is, not just believe, and I am justified in doing so.

And I don't believe everyone is wrong either, there's just a stairway to the cold light, and many people are unwilling or unable to climb it. However we at the top can see the way the world works, and for your benefit, it should be our decisions that matter. Bereft of emotion, cold and calculating.

Honestly, it'll save lives.

[Manoka]

Great, I agree. What do you do to plan to replace the 80 million gun owners who use it for protection in the U.S.?

I personally would prefer a "knock out" gun, that puts them to sleep for 3 days, with no side effects, with at least a range of 100 yards, hopefully out to a thousand *and* force fields but... I don't know where to get them D:

Edited by Manoka, 17 December 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[Chancellor Gunn]

I really do want a force field...