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Means or ends?


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Poll: What do you think? (11 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think?

  1. Ends justify the means ALL the time (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Ends justify the means MOST of the time (3 votes [27.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.27%

  3. Means justify the ends MOST of the time (2 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  4. Means justify the ends ALL the time (2 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  5. I'm a pussy and can't decide (4 votes [36.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.36%

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#1 Learz

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:16 PM

Well?
Personally, the means justify the ends. I'm not exactly sure if it's all or most of the time, but I voted "all" just to mess with people. :)



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#2 Thrash

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:17 PM

"I'm a pussy and can't decide."

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#3 Dan2680

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:16 PM

Maybe Im just retarded... but how does the means justify the ends? That doesnt make sense to me. Wouldnt that mean what you are doing ends up in something bad? Thus regardless of the mean (whether its good or bad actions), wouldnt it be bad? As it leads to bad?

On the flip side, you do bad things to justify a good outcome which in the end its good.

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#4 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:17 PM

Ehh...

This is a question that's impossible to answer in a general way. It would depend on the situation.

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#5 Invicta

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:31 PM

It's completely possible to answer from a moral perspective. I take the perspective of Kantian universalist ethics on this issue, which is to say I support his formulation of the categorical imperative.

In a nutshell, he would say that any ethical rule that you wish to apply to a given set of circumstances can only be applied if you wish it to be applied by all people in all similar circumstances. In other words, ethics are not an individual thing, they are universal, and if you aren't willing to 'will' a universal application, or a categorical imperative, then you can't apply it in your own case. It's in a sense a moral test.

In other words, the ends don't ever justify the means, if the ends are ever wrong they are always wrong in all circumstances.

And saying that the means justify the ends isn't the way I would put it either. Rather I would say that the means may justify a lack of action despite the ends. For instance, take the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagisaki. Now of course people debate how things would have gone down without them, but lets assume for the moment that lots more people on both sides would have died had we not bombed the hell out of those two cities. I would argue that two massive unprecedentedly brutal attacks on innocent civilians can never be morally justified, and as a result the means (being immoral) justify a lack of action, despite the ends of increased loss of life over all. The increase in loss of life is more morally justifiable, or more honerable, than the murder of countless civilians to end a war.

However, to say the means justify the ends might be seen as a tacit support of the doctrine of double effect, which I also reject. The doctrine sets forth three rules required to justify an act with a known harmful result:

1. The nature of the act is itself good or at least morally neutral
2. The agent intends the good effect and not the bad either as a means to the good or an end in itself
3. The good effect justifies the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect and the agent exercises due diligence to minimize the harm

In essence I guess I think that's just too vague. It would prevent a justification of nuclear attacks on civilians, fortunately, but it might allow for other forseen harmful consequences because the act itself is "good" and the "intended" consequence is "good". I would argue that if you forsee a consequence to your actions that you know is bad, and you do commit the act anyway, then you intend the bad result as much as the good. It's a nicety, an intellectual abstraction, to say "I knew that x would happen, but I didn't intend for it to happen."

In essence, I would maintain that in order to take action, you need to be reasonably certain that the act itself is good, and that the consequence is good, else you have an obligation to in-action.

In sum, neither the ends nor the means can justify the other.

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:57 PM

I believe that all absolutes are inherently unethical. All ethics are situational.

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#7 Invicta

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:10 PM

Wow I could run with that one for a while and discuss its nihilistic underpinnings, but I'll just go ahead and say I disagree in the strongest possible sense.

I believe there is a situational element to deciding between two or more actions (or inactions) which are not themselves morally objectionable, but there are absolute ethics which should be upheld in all cases.

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:48 PM

I am VERY disappointed in you for not getting the joke.

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#9 Invicta

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:51 PM

The absolute statement against absolutes? I thought it was a vailed nod towards relativistic post-modernism (or in essence philosophical nihilism)...

I didn't actually realize you were joking :)

Sorry.

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:56 PM

It was both. I do believe that any truly ethical decision must take the situation into account. But I deliberately phrased it to be mobius logic. :)

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#11 Shotgun Willy

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:24 PM

*chuckles*

It depends on the situation.

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#12 m3g4tr0n

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:38 PM

Most of the time.

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#13 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:40 PM

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

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#14 Haflinger

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:50 PM

This is a classic fallacy in ethics.

The problem comes in defining the ends. The ends are everything which happens as a result of your chosen course of action. This means that the means are inherently a part of the ends.

What people usually mean is "Is X negative side-effect OK because Y positive effect also happens as a result of our choosing these means?"

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#15 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 11:24 PM

Oh Haf. You are such a slave to the god Nitpickus. ;)

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#16 Haflinger

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 07:00 AM

If you don't define your problems correctly, you will find that they are never solved.

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 08:56 AM

Problems can be solved? ;)

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#18 Invicta

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 09:49 AM

That's far from the only "legitimate" way to define the question. It may be the way you prefer to do so, but alternatives are not, in this case, inherestly falacious.

#19 Learz

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:27 AM

I define my problems as being solvable ;)
It's inherently implied in using the term "problem".

But I was setting this up in terms of consequentialism vs. non-consequentialism.

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 12:57 PM

*sigh*

Why do we always get bogged down in minutia?

The concept of "the ends justifying the means" is widely understood. If there is a more precise way to frame the question, so be it. I call that semantics. We all know what we're talking about here: Would you do something that you understood to be "bad" in order to achieve a goal that you understood to be "good?"

Here's a fairly typical example: Terrorists have planted a nuclear bomb in a city, which is set to detonate in eight hours. You are a law-enforcement official. You have captured a suspected terrorist who you have good reason to believe can lead you to the bomb in time to defuse it. Is it justifiable to use torture to extract that information?

I would say yes, in this situation it would be justifiable to use torture. Therefore the ends (preventing tens of thousands of deaths, etc.) justifies the means (deliberate infliction of pain and suffering on an individual).

But I have a hard time with trying to create blanket rules for this type of thing. I believe that the details of the situation in question must always be taken into account. I don't find anything particularly moral or ethical about adhering to a rigid dogma just for the sake of consistency.

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