15 replies to this topic

[CeltSoldierKev]

Ok, I think we would be better served if each topic had its own thread. Might make responding to something specific a bit easier than saying, "I disagree with point 27 of your OP."

So... Here's a separate thread on the topic of compulsory voting. Let's try to keep it a BIT focused.

Personally, I think that voter turnout levels are woefully low. Especially when you include primaries and off-year elections. But, is compulsory voting the answer? No. Unfortunately, a large part of the populace (In terms of the U.S. and the West) do not care enough about politics and the elective process. Making voting mandatory would not change this, they would simply go in and make an uninformed decision. Yes, that happens already, but exacerbating the problem is the last thing we need. This is how we get asshats in positions of power that make great sound bites, but are, in reality, fairly incompetent or corrupt.

The ONLY way compulsory voting could work was if there were also compulsory service (military or social) to expose voters to other segments of society AND mandatory testing of history (especially the founding of the country) and current events. If a person just failed a "Jaywalking" quiz, then we can't expect them to make a rational, informed decision on our elected leaders.

If someone is more concerned with the latest Hollywood tripe reality show, and can't show the effort to become informed on issues and candidates, then I'll be damned if they should then be required to have a say in such important matters such as tax rates, foreign policy, environmental concerns, education, etc. Note I said required. They still have the right, and I'm not talking about taking that away from them. If they want to spend their time sniffing nail polish and watching whatever, that's on them.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I think voting should be compulsory for all citizens, but with a caveat: Not all residents of the country, even those who were born there, would automatically be citizens.

 

In my dream world I would create a system that differentiates between residents and citizens. Both would have the same protections under the law, the same rights to free speech, assembly, and all the rest. But to vote you must be a citizen. Citizenship would be earned by passing a test that proves you understand the basics of government and the issues of the day. Anyone would be eligible to take the test at any time, but if you pass it you have made the commitment to be a citizen, which comes with certain responsibilities. Think of it like a license to vote. Not everyone would qualify.

[CeltSoldierKev]

Starship Troopers style? I like it!

[King Biscuit]

Starship Troopers style? I like it!

 

ROUGHNECKS! OORAH!

[Shokkou]

I don't like the idea of compulsory voting. People should have the right to choose whether they want to exercise their say in government matters. I also dislike the idea of having a test. Too much bureaucratic nonsense, too much wasting time, too easy to abuse. It could easily become a method of gating off political power from certain people to concentrate it in the hands of a few.

[Manoka]

I think voting should be compulsory for all citizens, but with a caveat: Not all residents of the country, even those who were born there, would automatically be citizens.

 

In my dream world I would create a system that differentiates between residents and citizens. Both would have the same protections under the law, the same rights to free speech, assembly, and all the rest. But to vote you must be a citizen. Citizenship would be earned by passing a test that proves you understand the basics of government and the issues of the day. Anyone would be eligible to take the test at any time, but if you pass it you have made the commitment to be a citizen, which comes with certain responsibilities. Think of it like a license to vote. Not everyone would qualify.

No Jorost, tell us how you REALLY feel?

[Redezra]

Starship Troopers style? I like it!

 

ROUGHNECKS! OORAH!

Would you like to know more?

[KiWi]

I think voting should be compulsory for all citizens, but with a caveat: Not all residents of the country, even those who were born there, would automatically be citizens.
 
In my dream world I would create a system that differentiates between residents and citizens. Both would have the same protections under the law, the same rights to free speech, assembly, and all the rest. But to vote you must be a citizen. Citizenship would be earned by passing a test that proves you understand the basics of government and the issues of the day. Anyone would be eligible to take the test at any time, but if you pass it you have made the commitment to be a citizen, which comes with certain responsibilities. Think of it like a license to vote. Not everyone would qualify.

I agree.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Literacy_test

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

It could easily become a method of gating off political power from certain people to concentrate it in the hands of a few.

 

Well, at the risk of sounding like a giant douche (who am I kidding — that ship sailed a LONG time ago!), that's kind of the idea. People too dumb to understand what's going on shouldn't have a say.

[Redezra]

It could easily become a method of gating off political power from certain people to concentrate it in the hands of a few.

 

Well, at the risk of sounding like a giant douche (who am I kidding — that ship sailed a LONG time ago!), that's kind of the idea. People too dumb to understand what's going on shouldn't have a say.

SEE SHOKKOU, PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME ON THAT ;__;

 

I'm not a psycho evil dictator, I swear!

[Shokkou]

Yes you are, Redezra. You and Jorost both. I noticed Jorost saw fit to crop out my comment about such a system being open to abuse. Who gets to decide what would be on such a test? Who gets to score the tests? What kind of oversight would there be? What system would be in place for those who feel they have been wrongly denied the right to vote? What would prevent people from failing test takers, only to let them get tangled in the bureaucracy of trying to appeal their test score while being unable to vote in the meantime? How long would it take to process? What recourse would a person have if their results were lost or wound up taking too long to process?

 

Moving on from those questions on the basic feasibility of such an idea, I have a few on the ethics of such a decision. Why would you advocate gating off political power and preventing people from having a say in matters that directly affect their lives? Do you want to create a system where the only way for certain people to express disapproval is violence?

 

If you think people are so dumb that they shouldn't have the right to have a say in matters that affect their lives, then maybe you should get off your lazy-ass soapbox and get them informed. If that is beyond you to the point that there are still enough uninformed people voting to negatively impact the decisions the government is making, then things are beyond the point where this would have any chance of working.

 

As one final note, would this even be a matter of people being genuinely uninformed or would it be a case of "my political ideology is clearly so rational, people who can't see why it's so great obviously must not be informed enough and shouldn't be allowed to vote?" Do you think most people who would find themselves in a position of authority in a system of this nature would approach this more from the angle of the former or the latter?

[Redezra]

Well, I think the Citizenship test would be decided on in a referendum. Then all current citizens would be citizens, and only the next gen would have to start with the test.

 

Switzerland has a non-citizen resident class.

[Dre4mwe4ver]

Unless you can guarantee all individuals an equal level of education that fits all of their individual needs, then any regulation on right to vote with a basis in some form of assessment is a mechanism that would, whether by design or byproduct, disenfranchise a marginalized portion of the population: institutionalized elitism. Which, if that's what you're going for, is a sacrifice of individual right for a perceived greater good.

[CeltSoldierKev]

Unless you can guarantee all individuals an equal level of education that fits all of their individual needs, then any regulation on right to vote with a basis in some form of assessment is a mechanism that would, whether by design or byproduct, disenfranchise a marginalized portion of the population: institutionalized elitism. Which, if that's what you're going for, is a sacrifice of individual right for a perceived greater good.

That, is exactly what is being discussed. And, like every other previous attempt in the U.S. to implement a test to be eligible to vote, this too is completely un-Constitutional. And, since a test of competency is required to make any form of compulsory voting effective, we must conclude that compulsory voting is not possible.

Besides, according to Rush, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." And THAT is the beauty and strength of a democratic society.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Oh, look, I'm not saying anything like this could ever be implemented in the United States. It is blatantly unconstitutional. Every nitwit has the power to vote in our system, which is both its strength and its weakness. No, I was just talking in a perfect, fantasy world. Jorost's utopia, think of it. Jorostopia.

 

The first rule of Jorostopia is that smart people should be in charge. To that end, the franchise would be limited to only those who could demonstrate certain basic understandings and aptitudes. While we believe that all people are equal before the law, and all are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, we also understand that all people are not equal intellectually, nor do they all possess the specialized forms of knowledge necessary to make informed judgments on important issues. Contrary to the American myth of the classless society, Jorostopia recognizes that class and hierarchy is inherent to human nature, and that any system designed by us will ultimately yield to it. Therefore we set out to create a system in which the classes were at least related to one's abilities, and specifically the abilities that would enable one to contribute to society.

 

Jorostopia recognizes that even the lowest among us deserves a minimum decent standard of living, and that even with the primitive economic system currently dominating the globe we possess the resources to make this possible. There is no hunger in Jorostopia, no homelessness, no want. Food, housing, medical care, education — these are the basic rights of every citizen of Jorostopia. Policy is guided by science and reason without regard to expense, for money as we know it does not exist in Jorostopia. Just happy, smiling people marching boldly toward a bright future.

[Dre4mwe4ver]

I'd be too stupid and sad for a Jorostopia.