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#1 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:01 AM

It's 9:00 AM in Ferguson, Missouri, and the fires are still burning.

 

For those who don't know, last night the grand jury in the Michael Brown shooting declined to indict officer Darren Wilson on any of the the five charges, ranging from murder to manslaughter, presented by the prosecutor. As expected, this did not go over well, and the night quickly descended into violence and chaos. A couple of thoughts:

 

First off, the media sucks. Every commentator on every channel spent the whole day yesterday delivering dire warnings about what would happen if they didn't indict and saying "but we hope that doesn't happen." Then when the situation deteriorated they all shook their heads sadly and said "nobody wants this." Bullshit. It was EXACTLY what they wanted. That's why every media outlet in the country was camped out in Ferguson all weekend. They were hoping something like this would occur.

 

Most of the protesters were angry but peaceful, and all night long we heard reporters talking about the protesters who were trying to stop the violence and looting, correctly pointing out that such behavior only hurt their cause, and besides, these were black-owned businesses they were vandalizing. Well, except for the police cars they lit on fire. But such is the way with these things. A small minority of scumbags who are only looking to profit or cause mayhem (or both) will use the situation for their own ends. It's too bad because it reflects poorly on everyone in the community, especially when the media shows a nonstop barrage of images of looting, etc. ("But I was going to loot you a present!" -Homer Simpson)

 

The prosecutor in this affair is a piece of shit. He had no intention of pursuing this case, thus the grand jury. Some of the lawyers in our midst might want to speak to this, but a DA friend has told me that grand juries are generally only used for political cover. Grand juries are the prosecutor's show; they have complete control over what is presented, and grand juries generally do what prosecutors want them to do. In this case the prosecutor in question, Bob McCulloch, has a long history of using grand juries to pass the buck. He also has a history of lying to the public about grand jury testimony. From his Wikipedia entry:

 

 

In 2001, the officers told a grand jury convened by McCulloch that the suspects tried to escape arrest and then drove toward them; the jury declined to indict. McCulloch told the public that every witness had testified to confirm this version, but St. Louis Post-Dispatch journalist Michael Sorkin reviewed the previously secret grand jury tapes, released to him by McCulloch, and found that McCulloch lied: only three of 13 officers testified that the car was moving forward.

 

 

This last part is especially telling, since McCulloch made similar remarks about the consistency of testimony presented to the Michael Brown grand jury in his inflammatory statement about the decision, in which he basically accused witnesses of lying.

 

We don't know what happened in this incident. A lot of what was said in the early days turned out to be refuted by the physical evidence, such as the assertion that Brown was shot in the back. However, we are still left with an unarmed black teenager who was shot multiple times by a white officer from some distance away. Considering the highly charged nature of the incident and the prosecutor's checkered history, there is simply no way to know whether justice has been served. Maybe the grand jury did the only thing it could do in light of the evidence, but it sure looks like the authorities are circling the wagons to protect the cop. And in a case like this appearances count for a lot. If they had been serious about this case the investigation should have been conducted by outside authorities with no vested interests and no historical baggage. Instead it just looks like a whitewash.





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#2 King Biscuit

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:03 AM

THIS WALGREENS IS ON FIE YAAAAAAAAA!

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#3 Von

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:42 AM

:(



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#4 CeltSoldierKev

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 12:24 PM

And, once again, it goes to show that many people have no clue what justice actually is. All too often, and exceedingly so in recent years, justice is confused with vengeance.

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#5 rotty

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 12:44 PM

This is what M.Brown's step-father said right before the violence started

http://youtu.be/MLlDzWt7TPc?t=59s



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#6 King Biscuit

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 12:59 PM


And, once again, it goes to show that many people have no clue what justice actually is. All too often, and exceedingly so in recent years, justice is confused with vengeance.


QFT

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#7 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 01:59 PM

And, once again, it goes to show that many people have no clue what justice actually is. All too often, and exceedingly so in recent years, justice is confused with vengeance.

 

The word "justice" connotes fairness and redress of grievances. Neither of those things have happened in this case. And like I said, perhaps there was no other outcome possible given the evidence. But since the police and prosecutors had already lost credibility and trust (not without good reason), it seems to me that they should have bent over backwards to avoid any appearance of impropriety. Instead they made it look like the authorities' priority was to protect one of their own.



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#8 koreaboo#550432

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 02:22 PM

http://apps.stlpubli...t/evidence.html

 

Ecerything the jury had is there. 



#9 Thrash

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 03:54 PM

I find it funny that they defeated their own case.



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#10 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 05:01 PM

Everything the grand jury had is there, and that's part of the problem. From what I understand, grand juries are usually brief affairs, in which the prosecutor lays out a concise case for why this person should be indicted. Remember, it's not a trial. But that's not what McCulloch did in this case. Instead he bombarded the grand jury with every single bit of evidence, every witness (both credible and not), every detail no matter how minor in such a confusing hodgepodge that there was no way they could do anything but vote not to indict. It was a scummy thing to do from a guy with a history of scummy behavior.

 

I wonder if there will be a federal civil rights case? My guess is no. The Obama administration has shown a decided lack of interest in getting involved with these types of cases (witness George Zimmerman).



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#11 koreaboo#550432

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 06:22 PM

Everything the grand jury had is there, and that's part of the problem. From what I understand, grand juries are usually brief affairs, in which the prosecutor lays out a concise case for why this person should be indicted. Remember, it's not a trial. But that's not what McCulloch did in this case. Instead he bombarded the grand jury with every single bit of evidence, every witness (both credible and not), every detail no matter how minor in such a confusing hodgepodge that there was no way they could do anything but vote not to indict. It was a scummy thing to do from a guy with a history of scummy behavior.

 

I wonder if there will be a federal civil rights case? My guess is no. The Obama administration has shown a decided lack of interest in getting involved with these types of cases (witness George Zimmerman).

 

Did you read the transcripts or are you just assuming this because some DA friend told you something? :P



#12 Thrash

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 07:12 PM

pants up, don't loot



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#13 Redezra

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 06:44 AM

I think the problem here is a matter of perception.

 

I started off on the side of "Hey this guy needs to be tried". Having seen some evidence now, and heard the officer's testimony.... I'd say it's actually a miracle that there wasn't a cop killing in Ferguson that night. Man had every right to shoot the kid. Some might say "He shouldn't have shot to kill", but he does say (and the Grand Jury did agree with him based on the evidence) that he paused, twice. Three shots, told him to stop, Brown kept running. Three shots, told him to stop, Brown went to (as far as he could tell) lunge, so he killed him before Brown had the chance to return the favor. This is the sort of thing America ostensibly has guns for in the first place.

 

I think that the idea that this guy murdered an innocent kid is artificial, and is the primary problem here. That's not to say that the police department is at fault, someone still needs to burn for the ridiculous and idiotic response to the town's anger immediately after the shooting.



#14 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 07:22 AM

Really interesting what happened last night across the country. Thousands of people protesting in New York, Los Angeles, Boston, etc. Nothing like this happened in the Trayvon Martin case, nor any of the many, many others. So why this one? Why now? I wonder if we're finally seeing a tipping point. Race, class, the militarization of police — a lot of threads come together in this case.

 

What we really need now is a speech from the president about "healing."



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#15 Manoka

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 07:48 AM

Really interesting what happened last night across the country. Thousands of people protesting in New York, Los Angeles, Boston, etc. Nothing like this happened in the Trayvon Martin case, nor any of the many, many others. So why this one? Why now? I wonder if we're finally seeing a tipping point. Race, class, the militarization of police — a lot of threads come together in this case.

 

What we really need now is a speech from the president about "healing."

It's because the media wanted a firestorm, and people are too easily manipulated by it. 

 

Facts and evidence be damned; when you got one side who says "well, look at the facts, it's legitimately wrong" and another who believes it's the ultimate evil and hasn't, then what fans the flames are the fact that people don't want to be told they're wrong at that point, and then it builds exponentially from there. 



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#16 Manoka

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 07:52 AM


And, once again, it goes to show that many people have no clue what justice actually is. All too often, and exceedingly so in recent years, justice is confused with vengeance.

 

The word "justice" connotes fairness and redress of grievances. Neither of those things have happened in this case. And like I said, perhaps there was no other outcome possible given the evidence. But since the police and prosecutors had already lost credibility and trust (not without good reason), it seems to me that they should have bent over backwards to avoid any appearance of impropriety. Instead they made it look like the authorities' priority was to protect one of their own.

The opposing side came up with the same conclusion in the forensic examination. [1]

 

Micheal brown was high on marijuana, and after robbing a store, was approached by a cop, and rather than playing it cool and pretending like he didn't know anything, freaked out and assaulted the cop, trying to steal his firearm, which automatically escalated the situation far beyond what simply admitting to stealing a 50 dollar cigarillo would do; hell, he could even apologize and offer to return it and maybe get off with a warning. 

 

 

Of course, his friends likely egged it on, might have even got him to steal it in the first place. It's tragic that an aspiring young man, trying to go to college, died, but he made many mistakes. 

 

There's no saying that the cop in question didn't either, but what lead up to the shooting was unfortunately unavoidable for the officer. 


Edited by Manoka, 26 November 2014 - 07:53 AM.


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#17 Thrash

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 07:59 AM

Micheal brown was high on marijuana, and after robbing a store, was approached by a cop, and rather than playing it cool and pretending like he didn't know anything, freaked out and assaulted the cop, trying to steal his firearm, which automatically escalated the situation far beyond what simply admitting to stealing a 50 dollar cigarillo would do; hell, he could even apologize and offer to return it and maybe get off with a warning

 

Got rid of the irrelevant part for ya.



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#18 Manoka

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 08:01 AM

Micheal brown was high on marijuana, and after robbing a store, was approached by a cop, and rather than playing it cool and pretending like he didn't know anything, freaked out and assaulted the cop, trying to steal his firearm, which automatically escalated the situation far beyond what simply admitting to stealing a 50 dollar cigarillo would do; hell, he could even apologize and offer to return it and maybe get off with a warning

 

Got rid of the irrelevant part for ya.

When people are on drugs, it often messes with their brain, and alters their sense of rationality. Same reason it makes it hard to drive and operate heavy machinery. 


Edited by Manoka, 26 November 2014 - 08:03 AM.


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#19 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 08:17 AM

Oh you were both there? :P

 

No one knows exactly what happened except Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. The eyewitness testimony was all over the place (a good example of why eyewitness testimony is a lot less reliable than people think). But the point is that all of this should have come out at trial, not in secret grand jury proceedings (and no, not everything was released; the information available to the public is edited).

 

I don't know what happened. But there is a strong appearance of impropriety here. Even if it was, as they say on cop shows, a "righteous shooting," the case was handled in a manner that was bound to increase tension and mistrust.

 

But honestly I'm more interested in the bigger phenomenon now. Will the nationwide protests occur again tonight? Tomorrow? Or will it just fizzle out? My money's on fizzle out, but I'll be watching.



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#20 Manoka

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 08:50 AM

Oh you were both there? :P

 

No one knows exactly what happened except Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. The eyewitness testimony was all over the place (a good example of why eyewitness testimony is a lot less reliable than people think). But the point is that all of this should have come out at trial, not in secret grand jury proceedings (and no, not everything was released; the information available to the public is edited).

 

I don't know what happened. But there is a strong appearance of impropriety here. Even if it was, as they say on cop shows, a "righteous shooting," the case was handled in a manner that was bound to increase tension and mistrust.

 

But honestly I'm more interested in the bigger phenomenon now. Will the nationwide protests occur again tonight? Tomorrow? Or will it just fizzle out? My money's on fizzle out, but I'll be watching.

My information was based on evidence, which I presented, I didn't assume I had all the answers. xP

 

The information of the grand jury became public, so it wasn't really a secret, and private investigators by the Michael Brown family were allowed to examine the evidence, as well. 



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