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Did 47 senators commit treason?


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#1 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:17 AM

The Logan Act restricts private citizens from conducting diplomacy with foreign governments. To wit:

 

 

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

 

 

This week 47 US senators, all Republicans, sent a letter to the leader of Iran saying that any nuclear agreement with the Obama administration will not be honored after he leaves office. As a result, many legal scholars now say that these senators violated the law.

 

I doubt that much will come of this. I agree that it certainly looks like the 47 broke the law, but I would be very surprised if the Obama administration took any action. In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.





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#2 King Biscuit

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:41 AM

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.

 

Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.



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#3 Manoka

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:05 PM

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.

 

Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.

I highly doubt it. 

 

It's not really illegal to send letters to people, not even to people in other countries. There hasn't been a treason execution in decades, so I doubt they'd be shot, or thrown in jail, or even that big of a fuss to be made of it. 



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#4 rotty

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:25 PM

Just another reason why I changed from backing the republican party. 



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#5 Manoka

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 02:34 PM

Just another reason why I changed from backing the republican party. 

I don't like either party. ;(

 

I want to create the moderate party, and then run for president on that party. 


Edited by Manoka, 10 March 2015 - 02:37 PM.


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#6 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 04:23 PM

 It's not really illegal to send letters to people, not even to people in other countries. There hasn't been a treason execution in decades, so I doubt they'd be shot, or thrown in jail, or even that big of a fuss to be made of it.

 

Let's read the law again, shall we?

 

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

 

That's pretty cut and dry.

 

Execution is not on the table. The punishment is up to three years in prison. I doubt that will happen either, it would do more harm than good. But boy would it be satisfying!



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#7 Manoka

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 04:52 PM


 It's not really illegal to send letters to people, not even to people in other countries. There hasn't been a treason execution in decades, so I doubt they'd be shot, or thrown in jail, or even that big of a fuss to be made of it.

 

Let's read the law again, shall we?

 

 


/>

>>>>>Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

 

 

That's pretty cut and dry.

 

Execution is not on the table. The punishment is up to three years in prison. I doubt that will happen either, it would do more harm than good. But boy would it be satisfying!

 

If we take it to mean that any type of interaction with foreign governments count as treason, than we could never interact with the British, or French, or anyone. If we take it to assume an extremely vaguely worded stance, than every politician should have gone to jail by this point. And what of diplomats, or foreign correspondents? What of those who have friends in other countries? What about "any citizen" acting with the British and setting up trade and what have you, or conspiring to do something say, economically wise, that would be unfavorable to the U.S.?

 

By that measure, we should all by this point be in Jail. And "to defeat the measures of the United States", would imply that any time a measure was defeated, we were conspiring towards treason. The basic two party system means one side is always trying to defeat the other inherently, so the idea that nothing we as citizens can do can defeat measures proposed by the U.S. would mean we are all traitors. 

 

 

I think, what you have to understand is, this is intended to apply to big things.

 

It would be like calling bullying torture, or an annoying person a rapist. 

 

 

 

From wiki: "The only known indictment under the Logan Act was one that occurred in 1803 when a grand jury indicted Francis Flournoy, a Kentucky farmer, who had written an article in the Frankfort Guardian of Freedom under the pen name of "A Western American." In the article, Flournoy advocated a separate nation in the western part of the United States that would ally with France. The United States Attorney for Kentucky, an Adams appointee and brother-in-law of Chief Justice John Marshall, went no further than procuring the indictment of Flournoy. The purchase of the Louisiana Territory later that year appeared to cause the separatism issue to become moot"

 

I think this is just grasping at straws to try to attack Republicans. Here is another article, hopefully explaining this. If we take it to mean it's vaguest terms, than it simply violates 1st amendment rights in any case, which would make it unconstitutional, meaning if it was ever applied that way, it wouldn't fit in line our must fundamental laws. 


Edited by Manoka, 10 March 2015 - 04:59 PM.


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#8 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 05:32 PM

It's not "any" type of interaction. The law is very clear. Apparently you need to read it again.



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#9 Manoka

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 07:19 PM

You're right, it's "any correspondence or intercourse", which means, like what, a conversation, or dialogue? Pretty much all of us have done that with a person inside a country outside the U.S. 

 

Not to mention, it says "any citizen", not just a politician. So, that means, if you've ever had any correspondence against the U.S., with someone outside the U.S., say the UK, or Germany, what with the whole, you want socialism thing, then you'd be a traitor to the U.S. 

 

 

Only one person has ever been convicted of this, so I highly doubt it truly means "any correspondence or intercourse", as in any at all, or like I said, we'd all be in jail by now. 


Edited by Manoka, 10 March 2015 - 07:20 PM.


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#10 Phate

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 09:33 PM

It's not "any" type of interaction. The law is very clear. Apparently you need to read it again.


At this point, I have to think he's intentionally playing the idiot. Or so I sincerely hope.

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#11 Redezra

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 12:32 AM

It's Manoka. Here exists a fine example of Homo Retardus. Behold.

 

Anyway, the crucial part here is "to defeat the measures of the United States". That's what they've tried to do. 



#12 Daniel P

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 01:45 AM

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.


Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.
8

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.


Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.

I don't think that will ever happen. Not even in my wildest dreams.

Why I on the political forum again...well I am out.

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#13 Manoka

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 02:10 AM

It's Manoka. Here exists a fine example of Homo Retardus. Behold.

 

Anyway, the crucial part here is "to defeat the measures of the United States". That's what they've tried to do. 

In a two party system, one side is always trying to defeat the measures of the other side. There have been plenty of instances of people working with other countries to defeat measures within the U.S. besides this, particularly by "any citizen". 



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#14 Manoka

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 02:13 AM

It's not "any" type of interaction. The law is very clear. Apparently you need to read it again.


At this point, I have to think he's intentionally playing the idiot. Or so I sincerely hope.

The wording is so vague it might as well mean anything, is my point. "Correspondence or intercourse" could mean just talking or interacting with someone.

 

Considering the fact that only one person in the history of the U.S. has ever even been indicted by the law (some 200 years ago), and not a single person has ever been prosecuted by it, I highly doubt it's intent in law is to prosecute anyone, or "any citizen", just for corresponding with a nation about U.S. measures, even if it's to change them. Considering that the U.S. is a multiple party system, any measure produced by the U.S. is always inherently going to have some bias, so we are going to have challenged them multiple times just a part of regular discourse in this country. The concept of challenging a measure by the U.S. is also just as vague, considering that, this is how our entire political system operates; if we take it to mean absolutely "any citizen", any "correspondence or intercourse", and any action "with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States,", than unless you've never talked a foreigner about U.S. controversies and asked about how to change them (not even the law!), than we are all guilty of treason.

 

 

Which I doubt is the true intent of this law. Even if the wording could be interpreted this way. 


Edited by Manoka, 11 March 2015 - 02:31 AM.


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Posted 11 March 2015 - 07:38 AM

 

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.


Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.
8

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.


Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.

I don't think that will ever happen. Not even in my wildest dreams.

Why I on the political forum again...well I am out.

 

 

As I understand it the most likely punishment for something like this would be a fine. That seems appropriate. Since money is all the GOP cares about, hit them where it hurts. I'm thinking $1 billion per signature. :ninja:



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#16 Manoka

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 09:01 AM

 

 

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.


Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.
8

In a way that's too bad, because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democratic senators undermining a Republican president's foreign policy, the arrests would have already been made. Oh well.


Had that happened under Bush II, post 9/11, they'd have been drug out of their offices and shot on the steps of the capital.

I don't think that will ever happen. Not even in my wildest dreams.

Why I on the political forum again...well I am out.

 

 

As I understand it the most likely punishment for something like this would be a fine. That seems appropriate. Since money is all the GOP cares about, hit them where it hurts. I'm thinking $1 billion per signature. :ninja:

 

Wishful thinking to attack your enemies, I suppose. xP



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#17 Shokkou

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 09:24 AM

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM

164868265.jpg

violated the law.

THEN PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD



#18 Daniel P

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 11:37 AM

They need to change that law. It to ambitious then again given today politics it will be 30 plus pages.

Anit this was also sent to Obama as well.

All I am seeing is finger pointing between both party's. I get more angry if it was a bribe. At most I want a public apologies.

In the subject of treason I feel like when news agencies post about our wars plans counts as treasonin my books.

I hate typing on the smart phone.

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#19 Dre4mwe4ver

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 12:09 PM

Bull Moose 4 lyfe

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#20 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 12:56 PM

What bothers me is that it was an attempt by one party to undermine a sitting president of another party. The 47 senators told the leadership of Iran that any agreement signed with the Obama administration will be null and void as soon as a Republican president takes office. That is unprecedented, and if it had been the other way around (Democratic senators and a Republican president) the right would be apoplectic with rage.

 

I could totally vote Bull Moose. Teddy Roosevelt was one of the first progressives. hell, he wanted to introduce national health care in 1912!



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