45 replies to this topic

[Shokkou]

The value of all labor is declining.

 

Once upon a time, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, shop clerks made a living wage.

 

It seems you've answered your own question.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I don't have any questions. I see what's happening very clearly. This system is doomed. The people at the top are just not willing to admit it yet. They are, as the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy put it, "a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes." This is why I can never buy a fancy German car. Because the MINUTE I get my BMW the revolution will come and I'm gonna look like I'm on the wrong side.

[KiWi]

I'm scared.

Hold me.

Fuck the system.

[Shokkou]

I see what's happening very clearly. This system is doomed.

 

If you see what is happening, and if the system is indeed doomed, why would you be a proponent of a placebo like raising the minimum wage which would only further entrench society in this system which bases wages on labor? If the value of all labor is decreasing, if we have a surplus supply of all these kinds of labor, then why would you want to further this dependency?

 

 

You see, but you do not observe; whereas I see and observe and thus bring many absurd notions to justice. Revolution? Pah. Now you sound like one of my socialist friends who is all too happy to complain about capitalism and clamor on about "the revolution" but when someone suggests he speak with his actions his response is "without a revolutionary event, there can be no revolution. V.I. Lenin" Which is to say "I like complaining about the system, but I'm too comfortable in my position within it to risk doing anything about it."

[TheDogMan]

Increase minimum wage, decrease the incentive to go to college and get a better paying job. Especially if a high school student starts working and decided the money's good enough for him to live off of for the rest of his life. In fact, create a maximum wage for high school students

[Justavictim82]

Unskilled or skilled, people still need to live. Everyone is living under the delusion that it is teenagers living at home with their parents who do these jobs. It isn't. It's adults trying to make a living. There are no more high-paying factory jobs and other ways for people without college degrees to earn a living. Hell, even people WITH college degrees are working at Starbucks. Bottom line: These are the jobs there are. People need to paid a living wage to do them.

 

I will stop you right there with the 'College students work at Starbucks' argument. Yes some college grads work at Starbucks but I am willing to venture a guess that a lot of them have worthless toilet paper degrees. I mean honestly what the fuck does a Liberal Arts degree get you? Philosophy? I know a lot of people personally that went to school and majored in partying. Should we just hand them 50k/yr jobs as they walk out of college? While we have an issue of ridiculous tuition rates and student loan percentages in this country (that is a completely different debate) kids also need to be more responsible for what they are doing with their lives.   

[slimshadyinc]

I do agree though that nobody deserves to live in poverty, not in a country like this with so much money, unless they just don't want to work at all. I just don't agree that everyone should go to college if they want to make a living, I think everyone should do what they really want to do in life and still live a good life. Like if your dream in life requires a lot of education to do (doctors,lawyers,teachers) then that is exactly what college is for. But if somebody just doesn't want to do that or they just can't, they should be able to get a job where they can make a living for themselves and live well, but not live lavishly. That's for the doctors and lawyer folks. Now, I'm not saying a job at mcdonalds should pay someone 15 dollars an hour to flip burgers, but you know what? I'm sure mcdonalds makes enough money to pay ALL of their workers a living wage, that's what gets me, that's truly what eats me. These corporations only care about making the maximum amount of profits and they want to pay their workers as low as possible. What? billions of dollars isn't enough for you? They could split a million dollars or two million dollars between their employees and it would help A LOT. And they wouldn't even notice that their bank account is two million short, their too busy putting more millions into it. 

[Jon32492]

These factory jobs still exist. My girlfriend's aunt and uncle both have factory jobs. She said she doesn't believe they went to college. But they live better than I do. Also, my dad never went to college and my mom dropped out after repeating 9th grade 3 times. But the year before my mom died, they made over $100,00 together. My dad sells cars and my mom was a waitress. Since then my dad has moved to another dealership that doesn't do nearly the business his old one did and my mom is no longer here. He still is making over $50,000. We scrape by each month, but we are making it. 
 
My mom, btw. Was a server at longhorn and she made I think over $40,000 the year before she died. 
 
Now, I will say, even for college graduates, jobs can be hard to come by sometimes. My uncle has a computer science degree and he is having trouble and is about to go back to work for pizza hut. But his problem is that he's really trying to stay with a company that is a sinking ship. He could get a good job if he applied himself.
 
My point is that people don't have to go to college to make it in this world. Jobs still exist that don't require college that you can still make a decent living off of. But I thought the jobs in question were these restaurant jobs where people are complaining and striking trying to get a raise.

[slimshadyinc]

 My point is that people don't have to go to college to make it in this world. Jobs still exist that don't require college that you can still make a decent living off of. But I thought the jobs in question were these restaurant jobs where people are complaining and striking trying to get a raise.

 

Those mcdonalds workers are fools to be honest, maybe their demanding for 15 dollars an hour so they have a good negotiating point to get like 10 an hour? 

[Redezra]

There is no point in bettering people who are stuck in low wage jobs. Do you think they would be there if they were capable, or willing, to do more? Who the fuck wants to flip burgers their whole lives? Nobody. That's who.

 

Just to be clear, I mean stuck as in forever. Like the 50 year old who's been a backend Maccas guy for his whole life. I also assume a perfect system where people are capable of just magicing themselves up the ladder to their level of intellect or capacity. Might sound ridiculous, but that is what you are all doing.

 

The trick is what you are willing to do about it. You can be purely cold and mathematical, and simply go "well, clearly your worth is not enough to keep you alive", in which case they will eventually die off to an acceptable level and labor costs will go up, and they'll be able to live again.... Or, you can be concerned about the fact they are humans, and alter your system so that pay no longer reflects the cost of labor. That is, you break, twist, or otherwise modify capitalism.

Edited by Redezra, 01 October 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[Justavictim82]

There is no point in bettering people who are stuck in low wage jobs. Do you think they would be there if they were capable, or willing, to do more? Who the fuck wants to flip burgers their whole lives? Nobody. That's who.

 

Just to be clear, I mean stuck as in forever. Like the 50 year old who's been a backend Maccas guy for his whole life. I also assume a perfect system where people are capable of just magicing themselves up the ladder to their level of intellect or capacity. Might sound ridiculous, but that is what you are all doing.

 

The trick is what you are willing to do about it. You can be purely cold and mathematical, and simply go "well, clearly your worth is not enough to keep you alive", in which case they will eventually die off to an acceptable level and labor costs will go up, and they'll be able to live again.... Or, you can be concerned about the fact they are humans, and alter your system so that pay no longer reflects the cost of labor. That is, you break, twist, or otherwise modify capitalism.

 

I never said there wasn't a way to better someone working in a low wage job. Opportunities happen daily and those with meaningful college degrees will never stay at the McDonalds/Starbucks level for their whole lives. I question the kids who willfully borrow up to $100,000+ to go to school for degrees that have no future. Part of the blame is on the schools but students are not being held with a gun to their head and being made to major in Philosophy. If you are smart enough to get post-secondary education, then you are smart enough to see through that bullshit..... or at least you should.

 

College students also have to stop falling into the 'This field will be in demand in 10 years' trap as well. I am 31 and when I was about to leave high school there was a huuuuuge surge in IT related majors because of the recent advances in PC technology. Fast forward 13 years and there is massive unemployment in that field. Why? Over-saturation of degrees in said field. The most talented people usually get snagged up (unless they have TOO much experience and are expecting higher pay) but even the average person in this field is left with crippling debt they cannot recover from.  I urge everyone in college right now to think about this before going forth in your field. Ask yourself if your degree is still going to mean anything in 20 years? or even a decade?

[Redezra]

Unfortunately I'm not as believing in the capabilities of the everyman. Just as how not everyone can be Hussein Bolt level world class sprinter, not everyone can be a professional. 

 

Your intellectual aptitude is limited by your genetics, and if you are unable to move into top tier intellectual service based jobs, you're going to have to stay in the lower paying more generic ones. It's the truth of the world, regardless of what people want to believe about it.

[Thrash]

College is an overrated money sucking corporation. Therein lies your problem. The point of college is not to teach you, you've already learned all you need to know to get by in life after graduating high school, hell I might even say grammar school. The point of college is to put you in debt.

 

Sure certain occupations like lawyers and doctors may require some additional schooling, but 4, 8 years???? C'mon. You could be trained ON THE JOB to do these things.

[Justavictim82]

Unfortunately I'm not as believing in the capabilities of the everyman.

Your intellectual aptitude is limited by your genetics, and if you are unable to move into top tier intellectual service based jobs, you're going to have to stay in the lower paying more generic ones. It's the truth of the world, regardless of what people want to believe about it.

For the first time in a long time agree with you on the first paragraph quoted.

The second paragraph is garbage. Skills are not always dictated by intelligence. Look at professional athletes. They get paid really good money because they can do 1 or more things in the physical spectrum better than 99.99% of the rest of the world population. I am a firm believer that everyone is born with at least one above average skill. Whether it be kicking a ball or being the best pizza maker in the world, every person is inherently gifted to do something(s) better than almost every person on the planet. To grow and master said skill(s) also depends on opportunity.

[Thrash]

It's time to disband colleges and bring back apprenticeships.

[Redezra]

Unfortunately I'm not as believing in the capabilities of the everyman.

Your intellectual aptitude is limited by your genetics, and if you are unable to move into top tier intellectual service based jobs, you're going to have to stay in the lower paying more generic ones. It's the truth of the world, regardless of what people want to believe about it.

For the first time in a long time agree with you on the first paragraph quoted.

The second paragraph is garbage. Skills are not always dictated by intelligence. Look at professional athletes. They get paid really good money because they can do 1 or more things in the physical spectrum better than 99.99% of the rest of the world population. I am a firm believer that everyone is born with at least one above average skill. Whether it be kicking a ball or being the best pizza maker in the world, every person is inherently gifted to do something(s) better than almost every person on the planet. To grow and master said skill(s) also depends on opportunity.

 

Yeah our disagreement comes in where I believe there are people shit at everything. I have no disagreement that an athlete can make one hell of a living, but there aren't as many athletic positions that pay well as office clerk positions.

[Justavictim82]

Unfortunately I'm not as believing in the capabilities of the everyman.

Your intellectual aptitude is limited by your genetics, and if you are unable to move into top tier intellectual service based jobs, you're going to have to stay in the lower paying more generic ones. It's the truth of the world, regardless of what people want to believe about it.

For the first time in a long time agree with you on the first paragraph quoted.

The second paragraph is garbage. Skills are not always dictated by intelligence. Look at professional athletes. They get paid really good money because they can do 1 or more things in the physical spectrum better than 99.99% of the rest of the world population. I am a firm believer that everyone is born with at least one above average skill. Whether it be kicking a ball or being the best pizza maker in the world, every person is inherently gifted to do something(s) better than almost every person on the planet. To grow and master said skill(s) also depends on opportunity.

Yeah our disagreement comes in where I believe there are people shit at everything. I have no disagreement that an athlete can make one hell of a living, but there aren't as many athletic positions that pay well as office clerk positions.

An office clerk may have exceptional skill in organization and paper pushing? I never said all skills are moneymaking and relevent. I have a friend who is very proficent in chopping wood. Doesn't mean he will make good money doing it.

[Manoka]

I wouldn't mind some. xP

[Redezra]

 

 

Unfortunately I'm not as believing in the capabilities of the everyman.

Your intellectual aptitude is limited by your genetics, and if you are unable to move into top tier intellectual service based jobs, you're going to have to stay in the lower paying more generic ones. It's the truth of the world, regardless of what people want to believe about it.

For the first time in a long time agree with you on the first paragraph quoted.

The second paragraph is garbage. Skills are not always dictated by intelligence. Look at professional athletes. They get paid really good money because they can do 1 or more things in the physical spectrum better than 99.99% of the rest of the world population. I am a firm believer that everyone is born with at least one above average skill. Whether it be kicking a ball or being the best pizza maker in the world, every person is inherently gifted to do something(s) better than almost every person on the planet. To grow and master said skill(s) also depends on opportunity.

Yeah our disagreement comes in where I believe there are people shit at everything. I have no disagreement that an athlete can make one hell of a living, but there aren't as many athletic positions that pay well as office clerk positions.

An office clerk may have exceptional skill in organization and paper pushing? I never said all skills are moneymaking and relevent. I have a friend who is very proficent in chopping wood. Doesn't mean he will make good money doing it.

This is where the labor costs thing comes into it. Lots of people could chop wood competently, and so it does not pay well. Only a few people can be competent accountants, and so it pays well. 

 

Relatively, anyway.

Edited by Redezra, 06 October 2014 - 02:22 AM.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]