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#41 Manoka

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:03 PM

The entire world's security is at risk if Iran joins in and other country's back Syria.

 

Plus it would be a great way to nab a bunch of guys we've known are evil for a while all at once.

 

 

Also, one of the United Nation's stuff is China and Russia, both of which support Syria, and don't seem to be doing too hot.

 

They do not supercede the rest of the U.N., except they do, becuase it needs to be a near unanimous decision; ignoring them =/= the entire U.N.



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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:05 PM

Well, if you want legal precedent for presidents launching military operations without a Congressional declaration of war, you can go all the way back to Jefferson's actions against the Barbary Pirates.  This is the same debate we had when the US was preparing to bomb Libya and essentially topple the Qaddafi regime, and the answers then, as now, are not neat and clean.  Like it or not, the United States is a global power, and our corporate interests have a huge financial stake in that part of the world.  So anything that affects stability in the Middle East could be said to affect our national interest.

 

By the way, I am by no means in support of taking action.  If you want to make an argument that "with great power comes great responsibility," that's one thing.  I would be willing to countenance a discussion in which the United States declared unilaterally that human rights abuses anywhere, any time will not be tolerated.  But of course we cannot possibly do that.

 

"National interests."  The truth is that people like us are unlikely to be affected overmuch by events in Syria no matter who wins.  Unless you have loved ones in that part of the world, in which case by (big time) bad.  But no, KB, you and me and Thrash and Nas and KiWi and all the rest are not likely to see any difference in our way of life based on events in Syria.  BUT if things turned bad, I mean REALLY bad, then maybe...  Well, who knows? 

 

There are a lot of nukes floating around that region.  As far as we know they are all in the hands of the Israelis for now.  But Iran is working on a bomb, and we know Pakistan has them.  Every time conflict erupts in or around the Holy Land there is the potential for it to trigger an Endgame scenario, in which a confluence of historical and political forces will drag nations to war seemingly in spite of all common sense or even public support.

 

There are a lot of reasons why the US government does not want to get involved in Syria.  But events are headed in that direction regardless.  The people who really stand to gain?  The military contractors.

 

Like I said in another thread, there are a lot of boners at Halliburton right now.



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#43 Manoka

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:08 PM

I think everyone needs to take a breath.

 

First off, we're not talking about full-scale war here.  We're talking about air strikes.  This is less Iraq redux and more Libya redux.  Assad should take notice — Qaddafi was stabbed in the ass several times before he was finally killed.  Bad enough to be overthrown and murdered, but stabbed in the ass seriously sucks.

 

Second, there is no desire on the part of the United States government to do this.  In fact we have dragged our feet from day one.  As soon as that chemical weapons attack was reported you could almost hear the White House saying "shit."  The president had, after all, very publicly drawn a line in the sand (ha!) on Syria, stating that the use of chemical weapons on a civilian population would be seen as a justification for intervention.  Still, we've known about the attack for a while now, and so far all the administration has done is dawdle and delay and hope something else in the news cycle knocks this off the media's — and the public's — radar.  But the media were not going to let them off that easy.

 

It now looks like there will be air strikes.  These will likely have the effect of shattering the Assad regime's hold on power, allowing the rebels to win.  It really is startling how much it resembles Libya.  And the problems are the same, too.  Assad was a devil we knew; who comes after him is anyone's guess.  What if the Assad regime fell and was replaced by an Islamic one?  That's not likely to do anything to ease tensions in the region.  More than likely the fighting will not end with Assad's fall; multiple factions that have found common cause would quickly factionalize.  Terrorist organizations like Hezbollah would be huge players.  It would be a frigging mess.

 

Or rather, it will be a frigging mess, since it now seems all but inevitable.  I hope in a year I remember this thread.  :)

 

Now, there has been some suggestion that the chemical weapons attack was some kind of frame-up, the implication being that "we" (i.e. the CIA) did it in order to give us a reason to go to war.  This seems unlikely.  First of all, it presupposes a desire on the part of the United States government to intervene, and as we've already seen, no such desire exists.  In fact quite the contrary.  Funny how history moves sometimes, isn't it?  None of the major powers wanted war in 1914, yet a confluence of events forced an inevitable outcome.  Despite their best efforts at avoiding it, it seems this government now has virtually no choice but to take some action.  It's like a double-dog dare with geopolitical consequences and god knows how many innocent deaths.

I do, however, agree with the assertion that the timing of the chemical weapons attack seemed awfully convenient, what with UN inspectors having only just arrived in the country.  But it seems to me that if we accept the premise that the attack was a frame-up done to make Assad look bad, then the next logical question is who stood to benefit?  It seems to me the prime suspects are the rebel forces themselves.

 

The other people who will gain are the military contractors and assorted hangers-on who stand to make bank if the US starts dropping bombs.  But those guys tend to exert their will politically.  Watch for a sizable number of Congress to be on board with this.  The GOP, for the most part, won't like it because Obama is president and everything he does is pure, uncorrupted evil.  Seriously, he could propose eliminating the IRS and the Department of Education and they'd yell and scream and say it was a socialist plot.  And the far left are opposed to war because they agree with Edwin Starr that WAR is ultimately good for NOTHIN.'  Say it again.  And of course the libertarians and Tea Party types, who tend to be isolationist to begin with.  Really the only people Obama has on his side are the corporate types.  Some socialist.  But a lot of members on both sides of the aisle will quietly be okay with it, some maybe even not so quietly, because whatever business interest has him/her in their pocket will be salivating for American intervention.  I bet there are a LOT of boners at Halliburton right now.

 

The mere fact that Big Money would love it if the US took lucrative military action in Syria should speak volumes about just how much the administration does not want to do it.  These guys are practically Obama's base.  For a man who came to office preaching change, Barack Obama has proven almost pathologically unwilling to shake up the status quo.  But that's a separate rant.

Bottom line:  I doubt we're looking at "war."  We're looking at air strikes.  Still killing people, and to the person whose child is killed as "collateral damage" I'm sure the distinction means nothing.  But I sincerely doubt we will see American soldiers on the ground in Syria.  In fact I think we're looking at a mess.  We're good at making messes.

The only problem I see with this is that very little money is to be made from the actual bombing itself. The stockpiles of explosives will be compiled regardless, and we still have retrofitted 1960's bombs with standardize gliding modules for our JDAM's. 1 billion dollars = 200,000 bombs, a lot more than we're likely to use. Thus, there's not a whole lot of money to be made. The planes, aircraft, aircraft carriers, and all that are already bought and patrol the world 24/7, with the ability to filter water, and have over 10 years worth of food at any one point in time, and many years of jet fuel, meaning that there will be no increases in spending given it's largely self contained with it's nuclear reactors.

 

The biggest form of money will likely come from aid, primarily huminatarian, meaning medical and food supplies for the rebels themselves since they have no supply lines. We are likely to drop in medical personel and problably green berets and other special forces, to train and arm the rebels as well as advise them, say with our sattelites (that we already have) on where and when to strike, monitoring their positions. These types of things are infinetely invaluable. While we won't have boots on the ground, it's pretty much always the case that special forces advise when and where to make air strikes, disable communication systems, and things like that; little front line work, but invaluable recconisance. Maybe sniping or attacking a few key targets.

 

 

So, that's likely how it's to play out, and there's likely not much money to be made from this war.

 

The biggest issue will be the cost of rebuilding. But that's not really the arms industry per say.

 

 

Also halliburton doesn't stand to make much money and it's very unstable in the region meaning the profits could be cut off quickly and they could lose a substantial amount of equipment. It is through reluctance they take contracts; in fact, there was not a single oil contract to an American company in the Iraq war. There is also not that much oil in Syria.


Edited by Manoka, 28 August 2013 - 07:10 PM.


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#44 King Biscuit

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:07 PM

Like I said in another thread, there are a lot of boners at Halliburton right now.

 

Dick Cheney's is the largest I'm sure.



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#45 Thrash

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:34 PM

get right on it Biden, we'll be waiting. if ya do it 2 times, does it count then?

 



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#46 Lord Draculea

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:35 AM

Just a few remarks from my side, if I may. I think what Petar said makes a lot of sense: the best precedent for such kind of military action (not involving troops) is Kosovo. As I recall, at first the US didn't want to have anything to do with the events in former Yugoslavia, seen as an European issue, that Europe should (and could) take care of. But when the ethnic purification became utterly embarrassing, and it was more and more clear that the Europeans weren't going to do anything about it (caught as they were in endless discussions about the legal aspects and other pretexts to delay taking firm steps), the US finally took the initiative and solved the problem (which today we think was for the best, even in a country like Romania, a traditional ally of our neighbors, the Serbs). Of course, the Balkans today are very far from the MENA, as the former has evolved a lot since the WW1, while the latter is today a much more explosive and uglier place.

 

As it looks, not responding to an event like the use of weapons of mass destruction in Syria poses a much greater political risk for a country like the US than choosing a form of limited intervention. Why? First of all, because it would signal to everyone that the word of the US means nothing. The US administration defined the "red line" as being the event of using chemical weapons (maybe in the hope that something like this would never happen), and now it is bound by it, there's no turning back (except at a credibility cost that I think even America can't afford). Second, it would be inconsistent with all your previous policy of non-proliferation and could set a precedent and incentive for any third-world dictator or terrorist group to think it's OK to develop / use such weapons as there will be no serious consequences - and this is a real issue of national security for the US (in case you were wondering why it was defined as such by your Government).

 

There were also a few remarks in the previous posts about America's reasons to involve and try to control the hot spots on the Globe. A repeating argument was that the US does it for "cheap oil" (or "aiding big corporations" or whatever). I have to tell you that, the way I see it, this is anti-American propaganda, and not even a very subtle form of it, most likely developed for third-world use, but which seems to have been internalized even better by many of the Americans themselves. This is a bit sad, isn't it? I would have expected to see a bit more confidence in the values that America stands for, 'cause they are no reason to be ashamed for, and I strongly believe that the whole world would be a lot more scary place today if it weren't for America in the last century or so. Of course, one may argue that understanding other nations / cultures is not America's strongest point, but you are learning! Plus you have allies willing to help you fill that gap. And in any case, one option that is NOT available to you in today's globalized world is isolation and autarchy...



#47 Thrash

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 01:38 PM

A repeating argument was that the US does it for "cheap oil" (or "aiding big corporations" or whatever). I have to tell you that, the way I see it, this is anti-American propaganda, and not even a very subtle form of it, most likely developed for third-world use, but which seems to have been internalized even better by many of the Americans themselves.

 

That's liberals for ya.



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#48 Petar Kresimir

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 05:04 PM

In regards to the Balkans, the USA didn't really take any role there until Srebrenica. The wars in former Yugoslavia could've been prevented. It was well known that Milošević would attempt to keep the country in one piece, by weapons if necessary. Hell, he said in 1989 (a year and a half before the beginning of the war) that difficult battles were before Serbia, and that the Serbian people should mobilize for the eventualities that were standing before them.

 

The problem with Europe, in that regard, was not only that they didn't want to actually get involved - they almost openly supported Milošević because, from their perspective, the Balkans were better off with Yugoslavia in one piece. Hell, when war crimes were being committed before the UN observers in 1991, all the foreign community did was wag their fingers at Milošević and say: "Now, now, Slobodan, be a good boy and don't kill them all." But that's a discussion for another time.

 

This is the main reason I distrust the UN, and I actually believe that a unilateral action by NATO would be a good move - if there were a unified opposition to Assad, who would be a viable alternative to Assad. However, there are some reasons why I don't support the move yet:

 

A) There is no firm evidence that it was Assad who used sarin.

B) The Syrian opposition is united only by its hatred towards Assad. However, if the war ends with the rebels being victorious, you will quickly see Syria turning into a new Libya/Egypt - a lot of factions vying for power, including many extremist ones. In that regard, Assad - as terrible as this may sound - is a lesser evil because he kept the religious extremists in Syria in check.


Edited by Petar Kresimir, 29 August 2013 - 05:04 PM.


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Posted 29 August 2013 - 05:45 PM

The problem with Europe, in that regard, was not only that they didn't want to actually get involved - they almost openly supported Milošević because, from their perspective, the Balkans were better off with Yugoslavia in one piece.

 

Diplomats usually want to preserve existing countries.



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#50 Lord Draculea

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:39 PM

This is the main reason I distrust the UN, and I actually believe that a unilateral action by NATO would be a good move - if there were a unified opposition to Assad, who would be a viable alternative to Assad. However, there are some reasons why I don't support the move yet:

 

A) There is no firm evidence that it was Assad who used sarin.

B) The Syrian opposition is united only by its hatred towards Assad. However, if the war ends with the rebels being victorious, you will quickly see Syria turning into a new Libya/Egypt - a lot of factions vying for power, including many extremist ones. In that regard, Assad - as terrible as this may sound - is a lesser evil because he kept the religious extremists in Syria in check.

What do you mean by "firm evidence" in this case? I think there is anyway very little doubt, and as I've heard, there is sufficient intelligence evidence, including tracked conversations of Syrian officials talking about the use of chemical weapons. Even Merkel (who is opposed to intervention) has recently admitted that, as far as evidence is concerned, there is little doubt about what happened. 

And yes, there is a political vacuum and the opposition is divided (by religious and ethnic/tribal groups) and includes many extremists (which is why the situation is actually worse than in Lybia and much worse than in Egypt), and this is the reason why a ground intervention should not be considered at this point. But an air strike should be aimed at firmly discouraging the further use of weapons of mass destruction, destroying the military deposits (if possible), and cutting the supply lines from Russia / Iran, and not necessarily at kicking Assad out of power, when it's clear that such a move would leave the remaining factions butchering each other and the civilians. Obviously, in the long run only a political solution will work, but we are not there yet.



#51 Redezra

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:24 AM

I believe in the UK's independant Military Intelligence Review board and it's finding that the only party that can be responsible is the government.



#52 Thrash

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:29 AM

Did you all forget that Al-Qaeda is part of the "rebels"? Ya know, that was the reason we didn't want to arm them in the first place.



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#53 Manoka

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 06:04 AM

Did you all forget that Al-Qaeda is part of the "rebels"? Ya know, that was the reason we didn't want to arm them in the first place.

 

They haven't used a single chemical attack in any wars yet so, it seems unlikely they would, now. But, it would require a missile exploding in mid air that was capable of properly mixing the chemicals. It's just not possible for it to blow up high enoug above the ground to coat a wide enough area to kill over 1300 people. That's just too incredible for a makeshift bomb that didn't blow up at the right spot in the air, which would need fairly adviced guidance systems, the right mixture of explosives, and the ability to mix the two chemicals and then disperse properly so it doesn't destroy it or not use it; plus, the purity drastically effects it's lethality since by products reduce it's effectiveness substantially, so to be that effective there's like flouride gases that have to be nuetralized and stuff.

 

Also, the ground with the Al Qeada connected groups and the other rebels is fairly shaky. These rebels aren't Al Qeada per say, but are connected to Al qeada, and are the Al Nusra.


Edited by Manoka, 30 August 2013 - 06:48 AM.


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#54 Petar Kresimir

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 03:15 PM

This is the main reason I distrust the UN, and I actually believe that a unilateral action by NATO would be a good move - if there were a unified opposition to Assad, who would be a viable alternative to Assad. However, there are some reasons why I don't support the move yet:

 

A) There is no firm evidence that it was Assad who used sarin.

B) The Syrian opposition is united only by its hatred towards Assad. However, if the war ends with the rebels being victorious, you will quickly see Syria turning into a new Libya/Egypt - a lot of factions vying for power, including many extremist ones. In that regard, Assad - as terrible as this may sound - is a lesser evil because he kept the religious extremists in Syria in check.

What do you mean by "firm evidence" in this case? I think there is anyway very little doubt, and as I've heard, there is sufficient intelligence evidence, including tracked conversations of Syrian officials talking about the use of chemical weapons. Even Merkel (who is opposed to intervention) has recently admitted that, as far as evidence is concerned, there is little doubt about what happened. 

And yes, there is a political vacuum and the opposition is divided (by religious and ethnic/tribal groups) and includes many extremists (which is why the situation is actually worse than in Lybia and much worse than in Egypt), and this is the reason why a ground intervention should not be considered at this point. But an air strike should be aimed at firmly discouraging the further use of weapons of mass destruction, destroying the military deposits (if possible), and cutting the supply lines from Russia / Iran, and not necessarily at kicking Assad out of power, when it's clear that such a move would leave the remaining factions butchering each other and the civilians. Obviously, in the long run only a political solution will work, but we are not there yet.

 

By firm evidence, I mean documents or intel that directly places the blame on Assad. It is known that the rebels also have stashes of chemical weapons, and I don't know if there are any means to show which side actually used them. Having chemical weapons in that part of the world is just a par for the course, really, as terrible as it is.



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Posted 30 August 2013 - 03:28 PM

The consensus definitely agrees that Assad is responsible.  On the other hand, the consensus also agreed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and we all know how that went.  After that fiasco, people are not so willing to simply accept the government's (whichever gov't it happens to be) word for it, but the fact that even nations opposed to military action (Britain, Germany) concede that Assad did it suggests that there is little doubt.

 

The president really painted himself into a corner with his "red line" remarks.  Secretary of State John Kerry made a statement today sounding forceful and resolved and making it seem like the bombs were going to start flying any moment, but then President Obama came out and sounded like a man who was still trying to convince himself.



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#56 Petar Kresimir

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 03:44 PM

If that is so, I stand corrected.

 

And yes, I agree that Obama should act, having given his word.



#57 Thrash

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

The consensus definitely agrees that Assad is responsible.

 

Which consensus? Who?



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#58 Manoka

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 06:32 PM

The consensus definitely agrees that Assad is responsible.  On the other hand, the consensus also agreed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and we all know how that went.  After that fiasco, people are not so willing to simply accept the government's (whichever gov't it happens to be) word for it, but the fact that even nations opposed to military action (Britain, Germany) concede that Assad did it suggests that there is little doubt.

 

The president really painted himself into a corner with his "red line" remarks.  Secretary of State John Kerry made a statement today sounding forceful and resolved and making it seem like the bombs were going to start flying any moment, but then President Obama came out and sounded like a man who was still trying to convince himself.

I'm not sure everybody does.

 

In fact, there were WMD's found in iraq!

 

 

Most were too severely degraded to be counted but, seriously, 500 tons of degraded uranium and over 1000 155mm howitzer shells and rockets and stuff, even if he was too stupid to store them correctly, does not mean he was NOT developing them. Iraq's chemical weapons had a shelf life of 3-4 weeks, so most would be degraded even if the invasion was over in a month, but it doesn't mean he wasn't producing them, or that he had gotten rid of them as part of an armastic agreement in the U.N., which he wouldn't even allow inspectors into his country at all.


Edited by Manoka, 30 August 2013 - 06:33 PM.


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Posted 30 August 2013 - 06:37 PM

Which consensus? Who?

 

Everyone except Russia and the Syrian regime itself, it seems.

 

I was skeptical at first too.  The fact that the attack came just as UN inspectors were arriving in the country struck me as suspicious.  But everything I have read suggests that there is no plausible alternative.  Few analysts believe that the opposition has the capability to launch a chemical attack.  And again, even those countries that are opposed to military action do not dispute that the Assad regime is responsible.

 

Let's take a look at the big picture.  What's happening in the Middle East?

  • The United States has drawn down its forces in the region, but there are still 15,000 American soldiers in Kuwait and nearly 3,000 in Bahrain, not to mention smaller forces in several other countries (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the UAE, Egypt, etc.).  Technically there are no American troops in Iraq, but there is an army of private contractors, and I doubt the average Arab sees much difference.  This is widely viewed by opponents as an occupation, and while we Americans tend to dismiss this as anti-American propaganda, try to look at it from their point of view:  Foreign soldiers are present in large numbers on their territory.  Forget about the religious angle, just that fact alone is enough to foster powerful resentments.  I don't think most Americans would take it very well if there were thousands of foreign troops garrisoned here.  We would call it an occupation, and rightly so.  The continued American military presence in the region virtually guarantees that the situation in the Middle East will remain unstable.  This is not a coincidence, but an active aim of American policy.  But more on that later.
  • Egypt, the most populous nation in the region and arguably the most politically important, is in turmoil.  Much rides on this situation; perhaps everything rides on it.  If the military junta is able to retain control, suppress opposition, and maintain its hold on power — in other words, if it goes back to the way it was under Mubarak, only with someone else in place of Mubarak — then it is a sign the status quo will be maintained for the time being.  If, however, the situation deteriorates, it could take the rest of the region with it.  If they went into a full-on revolution à la Syria, then watch out.  We could be looking at a region-wide war.  Maybe even World War III.  More on that later too.
  • Pakistan, the only Muslim nation known to possess nuclear weapons, is unstable after a decade of political unrest, assassinations, and American drone strikes.  Their border with Afghanistan remains porous, and they have been a known haven for major terrorist leaders, including Osama bin Laden.  This is a country on the brink.
  • Iran just elected a new, "moderate" president, who has nevertheless made it clear that he supports the Iranian nuclear program, which is expected to bear fruit in the next 5-10 years.  The supreme leader makes no secret of his dislike of the United States, and the regime is known to support Hezbollah, among others.  A major supporter of the opposition forces in...
  • Syria, which as we all know is a bloodbath.  The Assad regime has had the upper hand recently, but those fortunes look set to change with an American missile strike likely in the offing.  Such an attack could sufficiently weaken the Assad regime to turn the tides; indeed it is widely expected that this is exactly what will happen.  But then what?  Do we want Hezbollah taking over?  Or some Iranian puppet?
  • Iraq, a cobbled-together dream of a nation that is made to work only by the pumping of billions of American dollars into it every year.  The alternative?  An Iranian puppet regime and a civil war, most likely.
  • And don't forget Lebanon, Jordan, Tunisia, and Libya, all of which are in various states of unrest.
  • And at the heart of it all:  Israel, currently governed by a right-wing lunatic who believes all the Holy Land is his by rights.

Is it really any surprise that the administration is hemming and hawing about getting involved?  As bad as Assad is (and he is), he's still the devil we know.  There are lots of devils we don't; or rather, devils you and me don't know.  The CIA and State Department might have a better idea of who we'd be dealing with in a post-Assad Syria, and I bet none of them are nice people.  Some of them are probably connected to Hezbollah or similar organizations, or be Iranian agents, or both.  There's really no scenario in which Assad is overthrown and they have a free and open election and elect someone who doesn't hate us.  You see the dilemma.  No wonder they don't want to bomb.  But they will anyway.

 

Obama's rhetoric aside, there are certain red lines the US cannot allow to be crossed.  I believe Egypt is one of these.  Egypt cannot be allowed to fall; that's why Morsi had to go.  No one at Foggy Bottom shed any tears when the military removed him.  Indeed, the military may have acted with the American gov't's tacit support.  The big question is what happens next.  I do not believe I speak hyperbole when I say that if Egypt plunged into revolution like Syria, it would drag the rest of the region with it.  I lived in Saudi Arabia for a short time.  Everything is calm there, but there is always this feeling just below the surface.  A lot of people there are talking about change.  Talking about it to ME, a foreigner.  They have a young, restive population and an elderly ruling clique.  They are not as stable as they would have you believe.

 

Except, of course, that the United States would never allow unrest in Saudi Arabia.  So too we will never allow the situation in Egypt to deteriorate too far.  I believe we would put boots on the ground before we would allow Egypt to fall, although most likely it will not come to that.

 

For fifty years the United States has pursued a foreign policy of never allowing any regional power to gain too much hegemony and present a challenge to American supremacy.  Thus wars like Korea and Vietnam.  We don't even really have to win to achieve our ultimate objective, which is chaos.  Chaos prevents any serious opposition to US power from forming.

 

Cut to the Middle East.  We have a close ally, Israel, which owes its very existence to the United States.  Surrounded by enemies, the sheer force of numbers would ultimately overwhelm them if the tacit understanding of American support did not act as a buffer.  The Arabs in the region widely view Israel as a second Kingdom of Jerusalem, the European puppet state installed by the First Crusade, which occupied much of modern-day Israel and lasted from 1099-1187.  Ultimately Saladin took it back.  The US wants to ensure there are no more Saladins.



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#60 Manoka

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 07:16 PM

I'm pretty sure U.S. soldiers stabilize the region a little better. Without our assistance, there were ridiculous amounts of attacks by terrorists and such; it's now waned down drastically, and the attacks by Saddam in Iraq are very low, with Al Qeada being our biggest enemy there, now.

 

So basically, it's not serving to promote chaos. Most people are okay with foreign troops there. It's the terrorists, largely foreign to the area, and other insurgents they predominately don't like.



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