524 replies to this topic

[the rebel]

Russian Defense Ministry Says Intercepted Ukrainian Radar Activity on Day of Plane Crash

 

 

“Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery’s Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk],” the press service said in a statement.

“The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe [25 kilometers east of Donetsk],” the ministry said.

 

That's apparently under Ukrainian control....according to google

[Manoka]

Maybe the Russians shot down the other one too? O.o

[Manoka]

 

Like how everyone automatically thinks the rebels based on nominal evidence, as I said in the other topic Ukraine's military has shot down a civilian airliner before.

 

So have the Russians back in 1983. The man giving the order was latter highly decorated. 

 

Indeed, but I'm not the ones pointing the finger without any solid evidence, people here are automatically pointing to the rebels on whose word? the Ukrainians.

 

Anyway we will soon know as satellites would of picked up the signature trail of the fired missile IF it was one.

Um... probably not?

[the rebel]

Disregarding the missile conspiracies...

 

I think Malaysia, should without a doubt ground their airplanes and do some checks until the black box data is recovered, because this is the second one to go down recently without any distress communications from the pilots.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Disregarding the missile conspiracies...

 

I think Malaysia, should without a doubt ground their airplanes and do some checks until the black box data is recovered, because this is the second one to go down recently without any distress communications from the pilots.

 

It seems like there's little doubt that this one was shot down.  But this certainly has not been a good year for Malaysian Airlines.

[Dre4mwe4ver]

It was probably the Israelis.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I blame Obama.

[Manoka]

It's all a secret plot for the Ukraine to waste and spend billions of their own dollars and kill their own people and take over crimea with a fake Russian army to be able to get justification to invade Russia which they have 1/8th the military size of and 1/40th the funding.

 

Those evil devil geniuses!  

 

 

All that stands in the way of Ukraine challenging Russia's might is a 860% troop increase and 4000% budget increase. 78 billion more dollars a year over the last 50 years or so more funding, instead of that pesky 2 billion, and they might be able to take them!  

Edited by Manoka, 18 July 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[Haflinger]

Like how everyone automatically thinks the rebels based on nominal evidence, as I said in the other topic Ukraine's military has shot down a civilian airliner before.

It's mostly because the rebels are the ones in charge of the crash site and are denying international investigators access to it.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

And there is a substantial chain of circumstantial evidence.  I think it's pretty cut and dry.  It places these rebels in a bad position, and they know it.  There's a good chance their Russian backers are going to cut them loose and leave them to their fate, which in this case means to the tender mercies of the government in Kiev, which is none too fond of them.  Without Moscow's support they would not be able to withstand a concerted Ukrainian military effort to disrupt/dislodge/kill them.  They're a pretty undisciplined, ragtag bunch, as evidenced by the fact that they shot down a jetliner full of innocent people.  Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rebel rank and file were questioning just what the hell they were doing.  Political brinksmanship gone too far.  Putin gambled a lot on a group of whackjobs, and he lost.  Russia will keep Crimea, but Eastern Ukraine has won a reprieve.  For now.

[Manoka]

Like how everyone automatically thinks the rebels based on nominal evidence, as I said in the other topic Ukraine's military has shot down a civilian airliner before.

Yes, during a test where Russia assured that it was impossible for such accidents to occur; Ukraine later banned testing the weapon. 

 

As tragic as this is it doesn't really mean they'd shoot down this one. 

[Alyster]

The US offically blames the rebels for MH17 and also confirmed the authenticity of the audio recording published by Ukrainian secret service. 

 

http://ukraine.usemb...pRInolQ.twitter

[Manoka]

The irony is that by messing with the crash sight they've all but validated the U.S.'s assessment, since they clearly tampered with the evidence.

 

Whatever that may have been, it will be assumed that they were in some way responsible to want to cover it up and provide such a bizarre explanation. 

Edited by Manoka, 20 July 2014 - 06:43 AM.

[Thrash]

Why won't they release the air traffic controller conversations with the pilot? The Ukrainian gov't came in and confiscated it real fast.

[Alyster]

The irony is that by messing with the crash sight they've all but validated the U.S.'s assessment, since they clearly tampered with the evidence.

 

Whatever that may have been, it will be assumed that they were in some way responsible to want to cover it up and provide such a bizarre explanation. 

In all honesty the rag tag government of Donetsk probably doesn't know better. Even if their innocent i bet they would have done the same. 

a) They send material to Moscow, because their at war with Kiev

b) They need to remove the bodies because they start to decompose in summer

c) They have no proper expiriance or training about dealing with such matters.

[Manoka]

The irony is that by messing with the crash sight they've all but validated the U.S.'s assessment, since they clearly tampered with the evidence.

 

Whatever that may have been, it will be assumed that they were in some way responsible to want to cover it up and provide such a bizarre explanation. 

In all honesty the rag tag government of Donetsk probably doesn't know better. Even if their innocent i bet they would have done the same. 

a) They send material to Moscow, because their at war with Kiev

b) They need to remove the bodies because they start to decompose in summer

c) They have no proper expiriance or training about dealing with such matters.

But where did rebels get anti-air weapons? O.o

 

Or the ability to use them?

 

 

Even if they did it by accident, which is most likely, the whole situation really isn't right.

 

Why remove the bodies at all; it's not as if the aircraft fell within a rebel camp sight or anything, right?

[Alyster]

 

The irony is that by messing with the crash sight they've all but validated the U.S.'s assessment, since they clearly tampered with the evidence.

 

Whatever that may have been, it will be assumed that they were in some way responsible to want to cover it up and provide such a bizarre explanation. 

In all honesty the rag tag government of Donetsk probably doesn't know better. Even if their innocent i bet they would have done the same. 

a) They send material to Moscow, because their at war with Kiev

b) They need to remove the bodies because they start to decompose in summer

c) They have no proper expiriance or training about dealing with such matters.

But where did rebels get anti-air weapons? O.o

 

Or the ability to use them?

 

 

Even if they did it by accident, which is most likely, the whole situation really isn't right.

 

Why remove the bodies at all; it's not as if the aircraft fell within a rebel camp sight or anything, right?

 

I don't deny that the rebels probably shot the airliner down. Just saying if they hadn't been quilty, they probably wouldn't handle the case any better because their limited abilities. 

 

Also have you ever really smelled how dead bodies stink when their left out to the open in hot summer? Doesn't matter if human or animal. Smell of death is horrible. They had to be removed. Furthermore if they hadn't been removed to a morg they'd cause illness and diseases around them. Jorost as a medic can probably go more in detail about that, but it's probably not needed.

 

 

 

Also a point completely missed in general public. SA-11 (Russian name BUK) works as a group. A target acquisition radar is needed for the missile batteries. So far there's no evidence that the rebels would have operated any radars. However it's possible to link radar feed to them from another site. Closest compatible radar users are Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine's at war with rebels, I doubt they shared their radar link. Kinda narrows the list down. I'm surprised Ukrainians haven't hammered down on this problem yet as their well aware that the radar feed that tracked the MH17 and guided the missile for the rebels came from Russia. 

Edited by Alyster, 21 July 2014 - 02:57 AM.

[Redezra]

The SA-11/SA-17 systems both have mobile target acquisition vehicles. What's to say the rebels didn't have both?

[Alyster]

The SA-11/SA-17 systems both have mobile target acquisition vehicles. What's to say the rebels didn't have both?

 

Of course their mobile. 

 

Lack of evidence. We've seen pictures posted by the rebels of the missile system and we've seen a picture of rebels escorting the missile system back to Russia the day after they shot down MH17. We haven't had any shred of information that the rebels had or would even be able to operate a TAR. All information so far have pointed towards the rebels having a missile battery not an entire operational SA-11 battalion equipt with a radar and service vechicles. 

[Shokkou]

The SA-11 is a TELAR.