111 replies to this topic

[Haflinger]

I think that's New Jersey thirty or forty years ago, I'm not sure how much it goes on any more. Thrash might have more to say about that. But remember, NJ is actually one of the richest, poshest states in the union. Last time I checked it was #1, in fact (although I think sometimes Connecticut surpasses it).

It's somewhat better now, but yes, there's definitely still a significant organized crime element in the government there.

I didn't ask your personal financial situation. I asked if you have to bribe officials to get government services in Canada. And it was more of a rhetorical question to make a point, since I was already reasonably sure of the answer. But you're the one who cited examples from your own life to bolster your argument. If you don't want to go down that path, don't open the gate.

You asked me about house and job, etc. Anyway.

And yes. The answer is yes. There are some government services that are only available to relatives of government officials.

Probably because they're getting kickbacks or other tangible benefits. And yes, THAT is corruption. It happens here, too, only on a much larger scale, usually under the guise of "lobbying." What is the status of private money in Canadian elections? Is it allowed? And if so, are there limits on it?

In theory, it's much more restricted than in the U.S. All of our parties are given public money to fund their election campaigns, and there are election spending limits.

However said spending limits are ... often not enforced. Again, corruption.

New governments also often bring in changes to the way that public money is doled out in an effort to cripple the losing side as well.

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It's somewhat better now, but yes, there's definitely still a significant organized crime element in the government there.

So now you're an expert on New Jersey too?

You asked me about house and job, etc. Anyway.

Give me a break. I asked you a clearly rhetorical question. I didn't ask anything sensitive or private.

And yes. The answer is yes. There are some government services that are only available to relatives of government officials.

Prove it.

New governments also often bring in changes to the way that public money is doled out in an effort to cripple the losing side as well.

There's a word for that: Politics. And no, I'm not defending it. But are you seriously going to tell me that it's SO much worse in Canada than other places? There are 183 countries in the world, and nearly 7 billion people. Probably 90% or more of those people live in places where corruption is much worse than it is in Canada. That's all I'm trying to get you to acknowledge. For the umpteenth time:

RELATIVE TERMS.

[Haflinger]

It should be clear that I'm comparing Canada to other first-world countries. There's no way I'm claiming that we're anywhere near as bad as say Nigeria.

I'm not sure what you mean by prove it. It's just ... common knowledge that if you want something like, say, a building permit for a new condo, you want relatives on city council.

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It should be clear that I'm comparing Canada to other first-world countries. There's no way I'm claiming that we're anywhere near as bad as say Nigeria.

I would say Canada is superior to many first world countries. According to the list, it's better than all but nine of them, in fact. But even if you dispute the specifics of the CPI, it's probably safe to assume Canada has less corruption than, say, Italy or Spain.

I'm not sure what you mean by prove it. It's just ... common knowledge that if you want something like, say, a building permit for a new condo, you want relatives on city council.

Well, if you want a building permit anywhere it's easier if you know someone. But that's not what you said. You said there are certain government services you can ONLY get if you're connected, and that I simply do not believe. That's Africa-level corruption.

[Haflinger]

Yes, you misunderstand me. I'm trying to be polite OK?

And no, it's not Africa-level corruption. The kinds of services that are restricted here are the ones for the wealthy; you can get something like a driver's license here in Canada without having to bribe people.

Here's another example of what I'm talking about. If you visit London, Ontario, you will see the city with the highest number of police officers per capita in all of Canada. You will also see the city with the highest number of millionaires per capita in Canada, not a coincidence.

What you won't see is any police officer ever travelling east of Adelaide. Adelaide is a street that divides the east end of London from downtown. Out there, it is literally a biker-run community.

If you live east of Adelaide, you can still get things like driver's licenses and other such government services, but you can't get ambulance service or police service. They won't come.

And I already said that we're better than Italy or Spain, perhaps with the exception of PEI. What I was beefing about was the idea that we're better than Germany or Iceland, which your index claims.

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I cannot speak to Iceland. But corruption in the former East Germany is still a significant problem from what I understand. That probably screws up their average. Also, remember that Germany, for all that is is a peaceful, socially progressive country in many ways, still has a powerful undercurrent of racism and xenophobia lurking not far beneath the surface. Just ask a Turk who is second or third generation born in Germany and yet still isn't a citizen. In the meantime, all I'd have to do is ask and they'd grant it to me. But then I have blue eyes and blond hair and the right lineage.

And since when have you ever tried to be polite?

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What you won't see is any police officer ever travelling east of Adelaide. Adelaide is a street that divides the east end of London from downtown. Out there, it is literally a biker-run community.

If you live east of Adelaide, you can still get things like driver's licenses and other such government services, but you can't get ambulance service or police service. They won't come.

A quick search of the London Free Press website finds two incidents in today's edition in which police were called to addresses which, according to Google Maps, are east of Adelaide. And a quick search for ambulance services in the city finds five, two of which are based east of Adelaide.

That said, I have no doubt that the police are slower to respond to calls in the "bad" part of town than they are in the rich neighborhoods. Welcome to every city in North America, Haf.

(Not that I'm defending such practices, mind you. I just don't know if I'd call them "corruption.")

[Haflinger]

sigh.

I notice that you don't give the addresses.

Anyway this is just what I experienced when I lived in London, which I did for three years. When I first moved there I was living on Adelaide itself; if I went two blocks west, there was literally a police cruiser at every corner; if I went two blocks east, there were biker-run strip bars (and yes, complete with kidnapped girls working as strippers and whores) lining the streets.

I got away from Adelaide later on, but ... sigh.

I would also note that east of Adelaide is the only place in London where non-whites are allowed to rent apartments. If you're black or aboriginal, don't expect to be allowed to buy a house in the south end either.

That didn't affect me directly of course being white and all, heh.

Also I usually try to be polite, I'm just not very good at it. Despite being Canadian.

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Haha. Well, for what it's worth, I don't mean to sound like a prick. But really, Haf, all the things you've talked about so far are pretty much par for the course in most places. All I've really been trying to see is that what you perceive as rampant corruption is really not all that bad by most measures. As I have already said, from my point of view a lot Canada looks pretty good!

(By the way, I didn't give the addresses because I figured you could go over to the site easily enough and see for yourself. In fact frankly I'm shocked you didn't. I would have. )

((I also can't believe you didn't weigh in on either of the other two topics I started today, Nanotechnology and Electoral systems. I figured those would be RIGHT up your alley!))

(((Look at all the parentheses I can use.)))

[Haflinger]

Well... you don't know this not having lived in London but the Freepers site gives me the creeps. It's like a Canadian Fox News.

[Haflinger]

But really, Haf, all the things you've talked about so far are pretty much par for the course in most places.

Well - British-style parliamentary democracy is very popular. So

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Well - British-style parliamentary democracy is very popular. So

Bringing it full circle. Nicely done.

Are you going to be on the show tomorrow? (I assume by now this has essentially become a private conversation!)

((OMG not the parentheses thing again.))

(((Yes. The parentheses thing again.)))

((((Make peace with it.))))