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#21 Thrash

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:47 PM



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#22 Manoka

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 06:27 PM

The Republicans were the socially progressive party, and the Democrats the conservatives, until the New Deal. Up until the 1930s it was still common for African-Americans to vote Republican. The civil rights movement really accelerated this switch in the '50s and beyond. By the '60s the lines were more or less where they are now. But even well into the '80s it was not unusual to find a few holdout conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans.

 

Well, it might surprise you to learn that the Republicans voted on the civil rights act of 1964 with an 80% majority, while it was only 60% for the democrats. [1]

 

Not to say that the Democrats were racist by the 1960's, they had over a 50% majority, but where as the democrats have slowly progressed out of racism, the Republicans don't seem to have regressed into it. There's no real evidence of that. I'm not sure where that myth got started. Probably democrats trying to say "you know all those bad things we did? Yeah, that was them. And all the good things they did? That was us!"; really kind of a fantastical stance to take on the issue, if you ask me. 

 

 

But the main point is, there doesn't seem to have been a switch at all, at least not as late as the 60's. 

 

I suppose it might not surprise you to learn that there's likely no evidence of a switch at all; when have the Republicans actually proposed racist legislation, or opposed civil rights? Gay marriage maybe, but both sides still kind of don't support that, Obama didn't at first when he was elected, if you remember. 


Edited by Manoka, 13 March 2015 - 07:50 PM.


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#23 Thrash

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 07:10 PM

oh lord, I'm in agreement with Manoka.

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 09:40 PM

The Civil Rights Act is what changed everything, of course. Interesting that it was LBJ, a Texan with some pretty racist tendencies himself, who pushed it through. But he saw which way the political winds were blowing. Many Democrats, like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms, became Republicans after the Civil Rights Act was passed. It marked the transition of the South from solidly Democratic to solidly Republican, as it has remained ever since. But its passage was the culmination of a long and slow process that began with the labor movement of the early 1900s and progressed right up through the Depression, WW2, and the fifties. Once upon a time the Republicans were the "liberals" and the Democrats the "conservatives," at least on social issues (the GOP has always been the more pro-business party). Their switch is arguably the defining story of American politics in the 20th century.

 

I wonder if we are going to see another fundamental shift soon. As the Republican party becomes more and more ultraconservative they simultaneously become more and more irrelevant. The Democrats have become the party of the Establishment now. That leaves a lot of room for a legitimate opposition party. You know, one that isn't crazy. It makes me think of that Chinese proverb about living in interesting times.



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#25 Manoka

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 10:00 PM

Alright, but when did they actually switch? Only a handful of real candidates actually switched during these times, less so even than in modern times. Why would people, fundamentally opposed to the other side, suddenly decide to switch? Over night, practically? And if the democrat and the Republicans both slowly progressed to supporting civil rights, with a clear 50%+ majority as far back as 1964, than if they did switch, despite not changing any of their policies or views on an other areas of politics, such as gun control, taxes etc., wouldn't it have been imperceptible, since both sides still voted with a clear majority in favor of civil rights?

 

If so, than the idea of currently Racist Republicans still makes no sense. On top of the complete lack of evidence. 

 

 

Party switching 1960's, D to R [1], R to D [2

 

More candidates have switched since 2010 than during the 60's, and the Republicans were still a 80% pro civil rights in the 60's. 


Edited by Manoka, 13 March 2015 - 10:04 PM.


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Posted 13 March 2015 - 10:05 PM

Back to the original topic: The New York Times Reverses Course On Clinton's Emails After Public Editor Admits Fault In Reporting.



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#27 Manoka

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 10:59 PM

But this is still important, in fact it's kind of fundamental to the whole debate of it. Someone brought up the idea that they only hated Hillary because she was a woman, and this was expanded in to with the Republicans being ultra evil and all that.

 

But anyways, I don't really mind how she sends her emails, unless she sent incredibly sensitive documents over public emails or something. Then there's no point in being lazy. I mean, I imagine, all she has to do is log out of her old email in her government approved super ipad, and then log back in, or hell, keep two tabs open, one in firefox and another in chrome, to have two email accounts open, and switch between the two. 



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#28 Redezra

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 03:04 AM

This is just the first of many attempts by the crazy wing of the Republican party to prevent the first black president from being followed by the first woman president, because that would truly signal the end of their way of life. Well, guess what? The bell tolls for thee.

I can't fucking believe it's apparently impossible for people to think she's a piece of shit without it being about her being a woman, just like I couldn't fucking believe people seriously thought no one could possibly be against Obama for any reason other than him being black. Fuck you. Fuck everyone else. Fuck Hillary. Fuck Obama. Fuck all of you in the ass with an unlubricated piece of rusty rebar. Have a nice, refreshing beverage on me:

 

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In closing:

 

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I think it's hillarious that people are upset about it at all. She's clearly got tremendous political momentum with her, and everybody knows it. Where she got that momentum is highly shifty, and nobody's saying she's good for the country...

 

But I'll feel warm and fuzzy knowing that there's an evil woman at the helm of the United States of America.



#29 Shokkou

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 05:18 AM

I think it's hillarious that people are upset about it at all. She's clearly got tremendous political momentum with her, and everybody knows it. Where she got that momentum is highly shifty, and nobody's saying she's good for the country...
 
But I'll feel warm and fuzzy knowing that there's an evil woman at the helm of the United States of America.


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Posted 14 March 2015 - 04:50 PM

Yeah, now CNN and the New York Times are walking back their stories. In all likelihood this story saw life in the GOP spin machine, a path that usually looks something like this: congressional staffer → conservative blogger → conservative media → mainstream media. It's really quite brilliant, when you think of it, and from a gamesmanship point of view I cannot help but admire the results. The Republicans are much better at getting out their message, and staying ON message, than Democrats. One of the qualities that has made the Clintons such an effective political force is their ability to stay on message.

Bottom line: To win an American presidential election you need 3 things:

  • Money. The 2012 election cost $2 billion. Two billion dollars. And since there has never been a modern presidential election that was less expensive than the one before it, we can safely assume the '16 race will cost more. It takes an absurd amount of money to run for president. More money than most of us (by which I mean most human beings, not just most of us here on this forum) would see in a hundred lifetimes, just to do that one thing. It's ridiculous, and a subject I have written about at length, so I won't go into a lengthy diatribe here. The point is merely to illustrate the incredible cost of running for president. In each party there are only so many sources that can reliably be tapped for large scale donations, and in the Democrats' case Hillary Clinton already has most of those sources locked up. Money will literally be no object for her.
  • Expertise. You need top notch advisers, pollsters, and political staff. Again, in each party there are only a limited pool of qualified, experienced people. The best ones get gobbled up fast. Hillary Clinton already has them on staff.
  • Organization. The much-mythologized "ground game," but its importance cannot be overstressed. These are the local and regional offices that do the lion's share of the work of getting their candidate elected. You know that college students favor you 2 to 1 over your opponent — who is going to make sure the students at Suchandforth Community College get out and vote? As Tip O'Neil famously said, all politics is local. Never is that more true than in a presidential election, and organization is the key. The Clintons already had one of the best organizations in the business, and Hillary's burgeoning campaign has attracted top minds from Obama's legendary organization as well.

Realistically you need the endorsement of one of the two major parties as well, but this list assumes that. These are the things you need just to win the nomination of one of those parties. It's the price of admission to the big leagues.

So here's what will happen on the Democratic side next year:

Hillary Clinton will run (duh). She will come in as the frontrunner and will remain so for the duration of the primary campaign, although one or more of her opponents might surge enough to make her nervous. She will have the nomination locked up by April.

Bernie Sanders will run, not because he seriously believes he has any chance of becoming president (although how awesome would that be?), but as an "issues candidate." His entire reason for being there will be to frame the debate, and he will hammer away at themes like corporate taxation, income inequality, and the influence of money in politics. He will stand with Hillary Clinton, the archetypal establishment candidate, on debate stages in Iowa and New Hampshire and talk about things that no one talks about in the mainstream media. If you follow him on Facebook or Twitter you know exactly what I mean. This will prove to be enormously popular and his numbers may surge, especially in New Hampshire (he is from neighboring Vermont, after all). It is not inconceivable that he could win the New Hampshire primary. All of this will have the effect of pushing Hillary Clinton to the left.

Martin O'Malley, former governor of Maryland, will run. In fact, like the Hilldog, he is essentially already doing so, although he has made no formal announcement. Most of you probably have never heard of O'Malley, and that's a problem. But not an insurmountable one — there was a time, after all, when no one had heard of Bill Clinton. And O'Malley has a lot more credibility as a candidate than Bernie Sanders. For one thing, he's not 73. For another, he does not have a public image as a "fringe" politician like Sanders, who describes himself as a "socialist" (imagine how that will go over in Flyover America). O'Malley was a successful governor of an industrial northern state, and Americans seem to prefer governors in the Oval Office. He is much more left-leaning than Hillary Clinton, and his electability might make him seem like a more palatable alternative to Bernie Sanders. His problem will be the three things listed above, especially money. But he has the potential to seriously threaten Clinton, and might even beat her in a few states, such as Virginia (a Super Tuesday primary). In the end I do not think he will be able to raise the money that would be necessary to overcome Clinton's powerful advantages, but in the right circumstances (say, if Clinton seriously stumbled) he has a shot. Look for him to be on Clinton's short list for VP. In fact, that might be exactly what he's angling for.

Elizabeth Warren will not, I think, run. She has been pretty adamant about this any time she has been asked, which is a lot. However, she has made some recent comments that suggest at least a chink in the armor. Surely she has considered it. Like Sanders, I'm not sure that she would do it expecting to win, but more likely with the idea of influencing the national debate and, eventually, party platform. I hope she does not do so. I love Elizabeth Warren, and I am proud to say that she is my senator, but I do not think she is ready for play at this level. Her race against Scott Brown was closer than many people realize (53.7% to 46.2% for Brown) in a presidential election year in which the incumbent was not only popular in Massachusetts, but running against the most hated former governor in the state's history. Warren raised $39 million, more than any other senate candidate that year, and had the full backing of the state and national party organizations. She should have trounced him, but she did not, and had the Brown campaign done a better job of getting out the vote in a few key areas he might have won. Warren was not that great as a candidate. She has said some brilliant things, but she also has a tendency to be preachy and pedantic in a way that many people will associate negatively with childhood memories of the teacher who always gave too much homework. A presidential election, especially against a candidate as formidable as Hillary Clinton, is a lot more challenging than a senate run in which you have all the money in the world and everyone backing you. Plus Warren's politics are really not all that different from Bernie Sanders' so they would be drawing votes from the same pool. Given all this, her running would serve no purpose. But the idea of running fro president has its own allure that is difficult for anyone who is not in that position to imagine. Despite all my reservations, I cannot deny that Elizabeth Warren is one of a very small group of people who actually have a chance of becoming president. So that puts her one up on me. The temptation may be too strong. If she were to run, I do not believe Elizabeth Warren could defeat Hillary Clinton, but as with Sanders and O'Malley her presence could drive Clinton to the left.

Do you see a theme here? Hillary Clinton is going to move to the left.

She will be free to do this because of two factors. One is that the United States is a much more progressive country today than it was even ten years ago, much less when her hubby was in office. Legalized weed? Gay marriage? These things were unheard of in 1995. Today they are reality in many places, and both are likely to be the law of the land soon (expect a lot of states to pass legalization referendums in 2016). Young Americans are not shocked by the mere concept of "socialism" they way their parents and grandparents were, and those grandparents are dying off fast. Consider: Kids that were 10 years old when Barack Obama was elected will be voting for his successor. It's a brave new world, and that which was once radical is now mainstream. In political terms, this means it is not "dangerous" for politicians to be seen to lean too far to the left the way it once was.

The other factor that will give Hillary Clinton room to move left is the Republican nominee. All of the major contenders describe themselves as conservatives, although some have more street cred than others. Of the top tier likelies, probably the least conservative is Jeb Bush, and this is a guy who was born in a grey pinstriped suit. He at least is relatively mainstream in his politics, and would offer Clinton the least amount of space on the left. The rest of the GOP A-team are dyed-in-the-wool conservatives in the Tea Party colors: Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Rick Perry, Mike Huckabee. Of these, Paul has the most advantages going in, with good name recognition and high favorability ratings among the conservatives who usually vote in primaries. He also has plenty of money, inasmuch as he is a bought and paid-for tool of the Koch bros. Many libertarians would no doubt be surprised (not to mention disappointed) to learn just how deeply their hero is in the establishment's pocket. No doubt they will do so during the course of this race. Even so, the very depth of those pockets may prove too much of an advantage for the others to overcome. But in a way it doesn't matter. Other than Jeb Bush, any of the ones I mentioned would be too extreme for a general election, and would give Hillary Clinton (or any Democratic nominee) plenty of room to — wait for it — move to the left.

I realize this was a formidable wall of text, but I don't make these predictions lightly or glibly. Obviously you can't "call" an election this far out. November 8, 2016 is 606 days away as of this writing, and 606 days is a loooonnngg time in politics. Anything could happen. But assuming trends continue on the path they have been following, the most likely outcome is that Hillary Clinton will become the 45th President of the United States. This is not to say that I am in favor of this occurring, merely that I believe it is likely. If there is one thing life has taught me it is that "what I want" and "what actually happens" are two separate and often very different sets of events. Heh.

If it were up to me, Bernie sanders would be elected president with Elizabeth Warren as his VP. Now that would be glorious!

sanders-warren2016.png



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#31 Manoka

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 05:24 PM

Well, I definitely like that your post is very thorough. I'm not sure I agree with you on everything. 

 

I remember a quote by Reagan that was something along the lines of "No country can persist that is not socialist or capitalist", in a jest against communism. Socialism hasn't always been considered a bad thing. 

 

 

Although, I can't find the source. 

 

That being said, compassion isn't socialism, and helping others isn't socialism. I realize the term gets thrown around quite brazenly these days, and if we use the vaguest term everything is socialism, but if we go back to the original labor union's days, it's really more along the ideas of democracy in the workplace, which isn't really what Obama is proposing. Not to mention, the Republicans had a form of healthcare that was nearly identical to Obama's, except it had an individual mandate. Obama didn't have one, claiming it was akin to forcing the homeless to buy houses, then put in a rag tag one in the form of a tax, which is kind of like, instrumental to the whole healthcare plan he copied from the heritage foundation. 



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#32 Shokkou

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 06:38 PM

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#33 Redezra

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 10:42 PM

*giggles, snuggles Shokkou*

 

You're so funny~

 

Oooh, we should run a presidential campaign. It'd be like the odd couple, but in politics :D



#34 Shokkou

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 06:12 AM

*snuggles Redezra*

 

What would our platform be? How would we decide who would be President and who would be VP? :v



#35 the rebel

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 06:16 AM

So how many of the presidential candidates aren't warmonger's or closet ones?

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#36 Redezra

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 08:50 AM

*snuggles Redezra*

 

What would our platform be? How would we decide who would be President and who would be VP? :v

 

You get to be president~ Strategically, it's the better choice. At least you could be male, I'm very clearly female, and that's going to pit the rather large moderately sexist conservatives against us to begin with, while keeping the "gender equality" thing around~

 

Actually, come to think of it, that can also work for a "left" leaning Democrat pairing too. If you're agendered and I'm female, we can't lose either, right? xP I mean if one novelty gender/racial element is good, two can only be better!

 

Hmmm... as for platform, I dunno. I'd love to come at it from a purely rational governance direction, less ideology and/or private interests. An attempt to make government work at, you know, doing what is actually going to do good for the society at the time, as openly as possible, as opposed to... well whatever the hell it's doing now. But hey, I'm less about that and more about getting people to feel like they're a wave of grassroots upheaval that will truly change the nation for the better. Obama managed it, and it let him do whatever he wanted. I think we should aim for the same thing, and figure out what exactly we'd do afterwards :P



#37 slimshadyinc

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 02:24 PM

The Civil Rights Act is what changed everything, of course. Interesting that it was LBJ, a Texan with some pretty racist tendencies himself, who pushed it through. But he saw which way the political winds were blowing. Many Democrats, like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms, became Republicans after the Civil Rights Act was passed. It marked the transition of the South from solidly Democratic to solidly Republican, as it has remained ever since. But its passage was the culmination of a long and slow process that began with the labor movement of the early 1900s and progressed right up through the Depression, WW2, and the fifties. Once upon a time the Republicans were the "liberals" and the Democrats the "conservatives," at least on social issues (the GOP has always been the more pro-business party). Their switch is arguably the defining story of American politics in the 20th century.
 
I wonder if we are going to see another fundamental shift soon. As the Republican party becomes more and more ultraconservative they simultaneously become more and more irrelevant. The Democrats have become the party of the Establishment now. That leaves a lot of room for a legitimate opposition party. You know, one that isn't crazy. It makes me think of that Chinese proverb about living in interesting times.



Actually the reason LBJ pushed it through was because it would have been seen as treason to JFK who truly believed in equality and fought for it. So he had no choice.


Also, america voted in a republican congress, imagine they vote in a democrat president 2 years later? That in itself must be a record.

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#38 Shokkou

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 04:14 PM

You get to be president~ Strategically, it's the better choice. At least you could be male, I'm very clearly female, and that's going to pit the rather large moderately sexist conservatives against us to begin with, while keeping the "gender equality" thing around~
 
Actually, come to think of it, that can also work for a "left" leaning Democrat pairing too. If you're agendered and I'm female, we can't lose either, right? xP I mean if one novelty gender/racial element is good, two can only be better!
 
Hmmm... as for platform, I dunno. I'd love to come at it from a purely rational governance direction, less ideology and/or private interests. An attempt to make government work at, you know, doing what is actually going to do good for the society at the time, as openly as possible, as opposed to... well whatever the hell it's doing now. But hey, I'm less about that and more about getting people to feel like they're a wave of grassroots upheaval that will truly change the nation for the better. Obama managed it, and it let him do whatever he wanted. I think we should aim for the same thing, and figure out what exactly we'd do afterwards :P

Suuuure. You just want to pull some puppetmaster and/or scheming vizier shit on me, don't you? ;P

 

One thing I've always thought would be cool to do is become president and have my first act be cutting the presidential salary to something like $40k/year plus health and dental. That'd certainly let people feel like they're part of some big change. It'd also be an interesting political move. Anyone who votes against me cutting my own salary looks suspicious and if it passes it puts pressure on congress to follow suit. I'd also want to drop the senate entirely, seeing as how it's completely unnecessary nowadays and only existed to get the smaller states to agree to join in the first place. That'd be a much trickier proposition, but if we managed that plus fixing the arrangement of districts and establishing proportional representation in the house the democratic process would be much better off. As part of moving over to proportional representation, we could also get rid of the electoral college and have things purely decided by the popular vote. Oh, and term limits. Can't forget term limits for congress and probably the supreme court as well.

 

As for the salary cut, I just thought of an interesting idea to help it work. If it fails the first time, I give a little speech about how it failed because the men and women of congress knew the eyes of the nation would fall on them next to follow the example if it passed. Then I take to social media and share a list of those who voted against it, thus making them look bad.



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Posted 15 March 2015 - 05:54 PM

The Civil Rights Act is what changed everything, of course. Interesting that it was LBJ, a Texan with some pretty racist tendencies himself, who pushed it through. But he saw which way the political winds were blowing. Many Democrats, like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms, became Republicans after the Civil Rights Act was passed. It marked the transition of the South from solidly Democratic to solidly Republican, as it has remained ever since. But its passage was the culmination of a long and slow process that began with the labor movement of the early 1900s and progressed right up through the Depression, WW2, and the fifties. Once upon a time the Republicans were the "liberals" and the Democrats the "conservatives," at least on social issues (the GOP has always been the more pro-business party). Their switch is arguably the defining story of American politics in the 20th century.
 
I wonder if we are going to see another fundamental shift soon. As the Republican party becomes more and more ultraconservative they simultaneously become more and more irrelevant. The Democrats have become the party of the Establishment now. That leaves a lot of room for a legitimate opposition party. You know, one that isn't crazy. It makes me think of that Chinese proverb about living in interesting times.



Actually the reason LBJ pushed it through was because it would have been seen as treason to JFK who truly believed in equality and fought for it. So he had no choice.


Also, america voted in a republican congress, imagine they vote in a democrat president 2 years later? That in itself must be a record.

 

LBJ didn't give a shit about JFK. He disliked the man intensely.

 

We are voting in Republican congresses now because of redistricting. In the most recent few congressional elections there have actually been more votes cast for Democratic candidates, but the GOP's stranglehold on redistricting in the early 2000s is paying its dividends. The electoral math does not look good for them for the presidency, however. Thus you have the Republicans with an advantage in Congress, the Democrats with advantage in the presidency. This is a complete reversal of the status quo from 1968-1992.



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Posted 15 March 2015 - 05:55 PM

*snuggles Redezra*

 

What would our platform be? How would we decide who would be President and who would be VP? :v

 

You get to be president~ Strategically, it's the better choice. At least you could be male, I'm very clearly female, and that's going to pit the rather large moderately sexist conservatives against us to begin with, while keeping the "gender equality" thing around~

 

Actually, come to think of it, that can also work for a "left" leaning Democrat pairing too. If you're agendered and I'm female, we can't lose either, right? xP I mean if one novelty gender/racial element is good, two can only be better!

 

Hmmm... as for platform, I dunno. I'd love to come at it from a purely rational governance direction, less ideology and/or private interests. An attempt to make government work at, you know, doing what is actually going to do good for the society at the time, as openly as possible, as opposed to... well whatever the hell it's doing now. But hey, I'm less about that and more about getting people to feel like they're a wave of grassroots upheaval that will truly change the nation for the better. Obama managed it, and it let him do whatever he wanted. I think we should aim for the same thing, and figure out what exactly we'd do afterwards :P

 

Ahem.

 

I believe we already had an arrangement to this effect, Red. I call dibs.



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