23 replies to this topic

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

GM's plug-in hybrid car, the Chevy Volt, is about to make its long-awaited and much ballyhooed debut. Will it, as its many boosters claim, lead us boldly into our bold new Green future while simultaneously rescuing the American auto industry? In a word, no. Here's why.

1. It's a Chevy. If I had a nickel for every time General Motors promised a world-beating new car that would Change Everything, I'd have enough money to, well, to almost afford a Chevy Volt (more on that later). Anyone remember the Chevy Chevette? Or the Citation? Or the Celebrity? How about the Beretta? Or the Lumina? Or the Malibu? I drove a Chevy Malibu Maxx in 2005 for a week in Las Vegas. At the time it was being lauded as Chevy's "import beater." Far from it. With only a few thousand miles on the odometer, it already had pieces falling off. The materials, inside and out, looked and felt like they had been supplied by Playskool. There were gaps in the door panels large enough to see daylight from the inside. Its performance and fuel economy were so-so at best. And, although it was a midsized car, it had a turning radius like a full-sized pickup truck.

The fact is that every purportedly "world class" car that GM has produced has been years, sometimes decades, behind their foreign competition. Many people have said that GM is producing the best cars they have ever built. And that's probably true. They have made vast improvements in quality in recent years. But so have the imports. GM's products are still a generation behind cars from Europe and Asia in terms of performance, fuel economy, safety, reliability, refinement and quality. There is no reason to think that the Volt will be any different.

And remember, the target market for this car is high-income, highly educated, environmentally conscious professionals. The kind of people who have had a visceral revulsion to General Motors products for the past 30 years. This is a solidly import crowd, and it will take a lot to convince them to consider any American car, especially a Chevy.

2. It costs $41,000. Yes, you read that right. $41,000. For a Chevy. Now, in the interests of full disclosure, I should tell you that Volt buyers will be able to apply for up to $7,500 in tax breaks and incentives. But therein lies the rub -- you have to apply. Rebates aren't the same as a low price, because no matter how much you may be getting back later, you still have to pay big bucks up front. And besides, $33,500 for a Chevy sedan still ain't exactly a bargain. For the same money you could have any number of better cars, including a base BMW 328 or Mercedes C300, or a top-of-the line, option-bedecked Honda Accord. And if high mileage and Green street cred is your goal, you can buy a Toyota Prius for thousands less and still get a tax break from Uncle Sam.

3. You have to plug it in. In order to charge the Volt, you need to have access to an electrical outlet. Virtually no infrastructure exists to do this out in the wide world, and besides, it takes up to 10 hours to charge. That means charging it at home, which effectively rules out anyone who lives in an apartment. Even people who own their own homes might find charging tricky if they live in an urban area. I have a friend who has a beautiful house in an upscale neighborhood of Seattle. In fact, it is a neighborhood full of exactly the kind of people to whom a car like the Volt should naturally appeal. Except that no one has a driveway. The street is lightly traveled and only has houses on one side, so residents park their cars along the curb across the street. So the only way to charge a Volt would be to run an extension cord across a public street, which simply isn't practical.

4. The Nissan Leaf. For truly hardcore Greenies, there is no reason to choose a Volt over the new Nissan Leaf. The Leaf has the same potential charging hassles as the Volt, but it has the advantage of being all electric -- there is no reviled internal combustion engine at all. And it costs nearly $9000 less at $32,780 (which translates to $25,280 after that same $7500 in incentives, for which the Leaf also qualifies). Given all that, and Nissan's stellar reputation for quality, they almost could have called it the Volt Killer.

It would be nice to think that the Chevy Volt will lead America into a new automotive renaissance. But don't hold your breath.

[Arikus]

Besides, the electric battery only lasts for 40 miles. Then the back up GAS generator kicks in. You might as well just get a Prius or some other hybrid.

Plus, it takes 10 hours to charge at 120 volts.

[Invicta]

The plug in vehicle that is a successful proof-of-concept is the Tesla Roadster. That car is awesome, and has a functional range of 200 miles, and if you add a 220 outlet to your garage can charge in something like 3 hours. Granted, it's still essentially a "runabout" vehicle, but you wouldn't normally make long trips in a two-seat convertable anyway. In comparison, the volt is a useless hunk of metal, which is pretty standard for Chevrolet. Honestly given the quality of foreign cars, and the fact that their made by American union workers in factories headquartered in America which pay taxes in America and employ American executives, I don't care if the so-called "American" auto-industry does die. So what? "We" can't make a car that's worth buying, and due to our lovely quotas the Japanese cars are pretty much every bit as American as the "American" ones. lol.

[linkkjm]

http://trinityent.or...line=1262820312

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

The plug in vehicle that is a successful proof-of-concept is the Tesla Roadster. That car is awesome, and has a functional range of 200 miles, and if you add a 220 outlet to your garage can charge in something like 3 hours. Granted, it's still essentially a "runabout" vehicle, but you wouldn't normally make long trips in a two-seat convertable anyway. In comparison, the volt is a useless hunk of metal, which is pretty standard for Chevrolet. Honestly given the quality of foreign cars, and the fact that their made by American union workers in factories headquartered in America which pay taxes in America and employ American executives, I don't care if the so-called "American" auto-industry does die. So what? "We" can't make a car that's worth buying, and due to our lovely quotas the Japanese cars are pretty much every bit as American as the "American" ones. lol.

Actually, foreign cars aren't manufactured here because of any quotas. Cars are rated as import or domestic based on their parts content. All those Hondas, Toyotas, Mercedes, etc., that are built in this country are still assembled from parts that come from overseas, so they're still classified as imports. (By the same token, GM cars assembled in Canada are considered domestics.) Foreign manufacturers build them here because it is cheaper and gives them easier access to the large North American market.

In a neighboring town there is a large barn festooned with American flags and a giant sign that says "Be American, Buy American." I always found that sentiment puzzling. It seems, well, un-American. It seems to me that the spirit of the Land of the Free is better expressed by something like "Be American, Buy What You WANT."

I completely agree about Tesla. In fact, I think Tesla may be the company that saves the American automobile industry. The Roadster is impressive, but more impressive are their plans for the future. Next year they will have a luxury sedan that will sell for about $90K and have a range of about 300 miles. Within five years they say they will have a $30K sedan that will go 500 miles on a charge. And that, my friends, would be truly game changing.

[Invicta]

At the time of my last econ class there were still quotas on Japanese imports that limited them to 1000 cars/manufacturer, or in other words forced construction in the U.S. There must be a degree of pre-construction that doesn't qualify a car legally as import because Toyota, Honda, Nissan and crew are definitely over quotas otherwise. Most of their models sold in the U.S. aren't sold in other countries, or if they are they are sold with serious modifications. In most cases the design work is done at least in part in the U.S., and the major manufacturing is as well. So I don't have a problem with it.

European manufacturers do not have any quotas, so there are no rules on import vs. domestic construction of their cars.

The Tesla Roadster was built more-or-less on a Lotus Elise chasis/body, which is awesome. Lotus is definitely in my top 5 manufacturers, up there with Lamborghini, Morgan, and Aston Martin, so that's one more reason to love Tesla.

One thing I DON'T like is that congress it considering forcing the Tesla Roadster and other similar electric cars to broadcast fake engine noise while driving, because they say it's being so quiet is dangerous to pedestrians. Whereas I say what the French do; if you step out in front of a car without looking its your own damn fault. Fake engine noises are stupid, if it has to produce noise, make it produce something unique at the very least.

[Dan2680]

I saw a really nice electric car on TV the other day. Im not sure the make, but it was electric/gas and it would run on electric anywhere possible. But it was not a "plug-in" car. The electric motor would get charged from numerous things, including the gas engine just running, and when applying the brakes whenever.

It was pretty cool. It had a fairly large sized tank for a car, and got great mileage to boot... So on a full tank of gas and a full charge on the battery you were supposed to go like 1600km before running empty.

My sunfire is alright on gas, 27.7mpg city, 34.5mpg highway

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

At the time of my last econ class there were still quotas on Japanese imports that limited them to 1000 cars/manufacturer, or in other words forced construction in the U.S. There must be a degree of pre-construction that doesn't qualify a car legally as import because Toyota, Honda, Nissan and crew are definitely over quotas otherwise. Most of their models sold in the U.S. aren't sold in other countries, or if they are they are sold with serious modifications. In most cases the design work is done at least in part in the U.S., and the major manufacturing is as well. So I don't have a problem with it.

European manufacturers do not have any quotas, so there are no rules on import vs. domestic construction of their cars.

The Tesla Roadster was built more-or-less on a Lotus Elise chasis/body, which is awesome. Lotus is definitely in my top 5 manufacturers, up there with Lamborghini, Morgan, and Aston Martin, so that's one more reason to love Tesla.

One thing I DON'T like is that congress it considering forcing the Tesla Roadster and other similar electric cars to broadcast fake engine noise while driving, because they say it's being so quiet is dangerous to pedestrians. Whereas I say what the French do; if you step out in front of a car without looking its your own damn fault. Fake engine noises are stupid, if it has to produce noise, make it produce something unique at the very least.

I'm really not sure what quotas you're talking about, Glen. Japan has import quotas on American cars, if that's what you mean. But I'm not familiar with any American "quotas" on Japanese imports. And 1000 cars? The big Japanese manufacturers sell more cars than that on an average morning. For example, in 2008 (the latest year for which I could find data) Honda sold over 1.4 million cars in the United States. That's over 3800 cars a day. So if this 1000-car "quota" really exists, it is routinely exceeded by several orders of magnitude. I can only assume that if it is real it is some kind of token quota or backhanded tax. All I can say is that I am a loyal and longtime reader of Car & Driver magazine, which dedicates a lot of column space to these kinds of topics, and I have never once seen it mentioned.

Many foreign manufacturers produce vehicles in the US. Generally this is because labor costs are lower here than in their home countries, and because building them here saves on shipping costs. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz and BMW all make vehicles in the United States. But those vehicles are still generally classified as imports because of their parts content (although they will bear VIN numbers indicating they were manufactured in the US, since this is their point of final assembly). Several of those companies produce and sell cars here that are not available anywhere else. The American Honda Accord, for example, is unique to North America. The car that the rest of the world knows as the Honda Accord is sold here as the Acura TSX.

However, it should be noted that not all vehicles sold in the US by those manufacturers are built here, only certain models. Every Honda Civic is built in Japan, for example. If you want to know a car's country of final assembly, you can use the VIN number. A VIN number starting with 1, 4 or 5 means the car was assembled in the US. If it starts with 2 it was built in Canada, 3 means Mexico. VIN numbers of non-North American cars start with a letter code:

J: Japan
KL-KR: South Korea
SA-SM: United Kingdom
SN-ST and WA-W0: Germany (the W codes are more common)
VF-VR: France (although we don't really have any French cars sold here any more)
YS-YW: Sweden
YF-YK: Finland (Saab convertibles are the only cars we get from here)
XL-XR: Netherlands
ZA-ZR: Italy (expect a LOT more of these as Fiat makes its return to the US early next year)

The Tesla Roadster is not built on a Lotus Elise body, although that is a common misconception. Lotus did help with chassis development, but the Tesla only shares 6% of its parts content with the Lotus. However, early Tesla test cars were essentially Elises with the Tesla electric drivetrain installed. And the two cars do look very similar, which is what I assume has led to the widespread belief that they are sister vehicles. Hell, I have mistaken a Tesla for a Lotus on the street a couple of times myself, and I'm a car geek!

[Thrash]

Not that people don't walk right in front of cars now anyway. They usually have an iPod on, or they're texting away and completely oblivious to everything around them.

How about the people that are walking along the side of the road, they hear and see you coming (by turning around and looking at you), and then they proceed to fan out ACROSS the middle of the street and give you dirty looks as you swerve around them.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

People like that drive me crazy. As far as I am concerned, roads are for cars. People walking can wait. But it's not just people on foot. How many times have you been cut off by a driver who waited to pull out into traffic until you were almost on top of them? I have never understood why people do that.

[Invicta]

Quick research indicates the quotas on Japanese imports were stopped in 1994, but they had limited imports of Japanese cars to 1.8million/year total for all manufacturers, which is when they started building plants in the U.S. So that part is correct, not sure where the "1000/manufacturere" number came from. Sorry, I was probably drunk or something.

As for the Lotus, I said it was largely built on a lotus chasis/body. By which I meant they were involved in the design, the early test mules were, as you noted, modified Elise, and the final product looks close enough that the "we didn't use their body" distinction only makes sense in so far as everything under the body is completely different due to the unique drive train, and thus the body and chasis are somewhat different as well. Lotus' involvement pretty much makes that "rumor" more true than not. Yes, I know, they are separate companies. I didn't say it WAS a lotus frame/body, just that it was highly derivitive of one.

Also, I'm familiar with VIN numbers, I'm a dedicated and long-standing reader of Road and Track, so different from Car and Driver, but I'm still a car guy. Heck, my Dad wouldn't let me get a permit until I could identify all the parts of an engine on sight, check and change all the fluids, change a tire and relpace the brakes (including greese packing the barrings), and for kicks he had me rebuild an alternator too. Before I got my permit. Although I admit I'm far more of a "plane guy" than a "car guy" and I would even buy a nice sailing cat before I bought an expensive car. So you are probably much more of a car guy than me. If only there was a way to measure that.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I think Car & Driver and Road & Track are pretty much interchangeable.

But I still don't think that building cars here would help with any import restrictions. At least not unless they sourced the majority of the parts here as well.

But anyway I think the days of "import" vs. "domestic" cars are a thing of the past. The new Buick Regal is built in Germany (by Opel). The new Ford Fiesta and upcoming Focus both come from Ford of Europe. And as you rightly pointed out, if a car is built here by American workers, then what difference does it make where the company is based? Companies aren't restricted by national borders nowadays anyway. Hell, the president of Nissan is Carlos Ghosn, a Frenchman.

[Invicta]

Damn straight he's French! lol

Yeah I agree with you. On the subject of Opel, I don't know much about them (ok, anything about them past their brief stint in rally racing), but I saw a few in Europe and thought they looked cool. Are they decent? In France I saw a lot of Peugeot (gotta' love the 906) and Renault (the Renault Espace actually won an award as the #1 people carrier (miny van) of Europe when I was there). I really loved the Peugeot 306, I wish there were more of them in the U.S.

[m3g4tr0n]

2. It costs $41,000. Yes, you read that right. $41,000. For a Chevy. Now, in the interests of full disclosure, I should tell you that Volt buyers will be able to apply for up to $7,500 in tax breaks and incentives. But therein lies the rub -- you have to apply. Rebates aren't the same as a low price, because no matter how much you may be getting back later, you still have to pay big bucks up front. And besides, $33,500 for a Chevy sedan still ain't exactly a bargain. For the same money you could have any number of better cars, including a base BMW 328 or Mercedes C300, or a top-of-the line, option-bedecked Honda Accord. And if high mileage and Green street cred is your goal, you can buy a Toyota Prius for thousands less and still get a tax break from Uncle Sam.

3. You have to plug it in. In order to charge the Volt, you need to have access to an electrical outlet. Virtually no infrastructure exists to do this out in the wide world, and besides, it takes up to 10 hours to charge. That means charging it at home, which effectively rules out anyone who lives in an apartment. Even people who own their own homes might find charging tricky if they live in an urban area. I have a friend who has a beautiful house in an upscale neighborhood of Seattle. In fact, it is a neighborhood full of exactly the kind of people to whom a car like the Volt should naturally appeal. Except that no one has a driveway. The street is lightly traveled and only has houses on one side, so residents park their cars along the curb across the street. So the only way to charge a Volt would be to run an extension cord across a public street, which simply isn't practical.

4. The Nissan Leaf. For truly hardcore Greenies, there is no reason to choose a Volt over the new Nissan Leaf. The Leaf has the same potential charging hassles as the Volt, but it has the advantage of being all electric -- there is no reviled internal combustion engine at all. And it costs nearly $9000 less at $32,780 (which translates to $25,280 after that same $7500 in incentives, for which the Leaf also qualifies). Given all that, and Nissan's stellar reputation for quality, they almost could have called it the Volt Killer.

It would be nice to think that the Chevy Volt will lead America into a new automotive renaissance. But don't hold your breath.

I could overlook reason one, if GM really put their all into making a quality vehicle. Obviously that would mean it was created without union labor.

Reasons two through four seal the deal. I believe electric cars are ideal for the in-city commuter, but I doubt our local grid could handle the added load of those vehicles. Things are already pretty sketchy in the hot, Texas summer. I can't imagine what would happen when a bunch of people plug their cars in during peak hours.

Also, GM really shot themselves in the foot by not pricing the vehicle correctly. If I was able to receive the maximum tax credit available, I'd go with the Leaf, hands down. Not only is it a Nissan (I love you GT-R), but it'll be much cheaper after the credit.

Now, if my city received their energy from a nuclear plant, then things might be a little different. In the meantime, I'll opt for a slightly different mode of transport.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

My Uncle Ludwig, as big a German car snob as they come, switched from BMW to Opel for his last car. That was a pretty ringing endorsement! Heh.

Opel had an abysmal reputation for quality when they sold cars in the United States, which they last did in the 1970s. But from what I understand they are well-regarded in Europe. Several Saturns were actually just rebadged Opels, including the compact Astra and the mid-sized Aura. In fact, the new Buick Regal was intended to be the new Saturn Aura until that brand was killed off in the GM bankruptcy. From what I read it is a pretty serious driver's car, underscored by the fact that it is the first car wearing a Buick nameplate to be available with a manual transmission since at least the 1960s.

Peugeots are very cool looking, and from what I understand are a lot of fun to drive. The problem for them in this country was their quality. They were just incredibly unreliable, and, like all European cars, very expensive to repair. Their reputation got so bad that they basically had to withdraw from the American market [insert French surrender joke here]. From time to time there has been buzz about their possible return, but nothing has ever materialized.

We will, however, soon be seeing another European carmaker long absent from our shores. In early 2011, Fiat will make a return to the US market with the Mini-fighting Fiat 500. So for the first time in many, many years, Americans will be able to buy an Italian car for less than the cost of a house. This will be followed by other Fiat models over the next few years. They will all be sold through Chrysler dealers (Chrysler is now a wholly owned subsidiary of the Fiat corporation).

I could overlook reason one, if GM really put their all into making a quality vehicle. Obviously that would mean it was created without union labor.

It's not union labor in and of itself that is bad. Every car built in Germany is made by union labor. It's the UAW specifically, which long fostered a culture of laziness and poor work habits. That has changed nowadays, though.

[Invicta]

From what I saw the Peugeots are much improved from those days, it's a shame they aren't sold here. I have seen a couple 206s around Richmond, but unusual cars aren't quite as unusual here; there are, in a row, a Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche, Lotus, Jaguar, Land Rover, and generic "European Imports" dealership about 15 miles from my house. So we see a lot of great cars. They are indeed awesome drivers cars.

I am not a fan of Fiat. Not at all. There are a lot of European manfucturers I would like to see here ahead of Fiat. :-/

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Oh, I don't know. Fiats are very cool cars. Take a look at the link I provided, you can find their other cars there too. There are some that are very attractive indeed. And like all Italian cars Fiats are known for their outstanding driving characteristics.

Besides, with Fiat comes their daughter company, Alfa Romeo.

My guess is that Peugeot will probably not return to the US any time soon. With Fiat coming the market share for European cars will be divided up between more manufacturers, and with Chinese cars expected to be here in a few years, the whole market could become extremely crowded. On the other hand, if Fiat does well then that might make it more tempting for Peugeot. I'd like to see them back. Citroens too.

[m3g4tr0n]

The Fiat 500 will be awesome.

[Invicta]

Citroen is an interesting company, definitely the "underdog" of the french manufacturers, but I liked them. I don't know a lot of their models by name but they looked good. A bit of trivia, Citroen used to advertise on the Eifle tower; they had giant letters running from top to bottom spelling their name, which were illuminated at night. Talk about product placement.



I think of Fiat as the GM of Italian manufacturers. They are buying everyone. Alfa Romeo (which was a much better company 30 years ago), Masserati, Ferrari, etc. I like indipendant companies, like Pagani. Now THERE is an Italian company I would like to see in the U.S. That said, there are exceptions, like Lamborghini, which despite being owned by the Volkswagen group [insert evil face] has been left pretty much entirely alone to do as they please. My favorite current car is the Lamborghini Gallardo LP 550-2 Valentino Balboni edition. It just doesn't get better than that. Number two would be the Morgan Aero Supersports; now THERE is an awesome indipendant sticking to its roots. Unlike the Morgan Aeromax, the first and only Morgan to be offered with only an automatic transmission, it can be had with 6 speed H-pattern manual transmission. Or what I like to call heaven. The Aeromax you can't get with a clutch-shift manual transmission due to a lack of room on the pedal board (austensibly) *sigh*. I'm just not sure I'm ok with all these sequential shift automatic transmissions floating around.

Edit: There is an episode of Jay Leno's Garage on the Morgan Aero Supersports, check it out here! Morgan is Brittain's last indipendant car company, how sad is that?

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Heh. Morgans are definitely cool, but they are an automotive anachronism. I don't necessarily have any problem with large auto companies per se. Honda builds arguably the best cars in the world, and they are a huge company. the same could be said of Toyota (which has now been exonerated of those unintended acceleration claims; driver error, anyone?). And Volkswagen, which is currently gunning to be the world's largest automobile manufacturer, makes terrific cars.

It's not the size, it's how the company operates. GM was an example of how to do it badly. At their worst they would take one crappy car, slap a different grill on it, and sell it is a Chevy, a Buick, an Oldsmobile and a Cadillac. But companies like VW and Fiat, while large, make a wide variety of vehicles for different niches. I for one am pretty happy to see Fiat return.

GM, by the way, earned my undying hatred for what they did to Saab. My favorite car has always been the classic Saab 900 made from 1978-1993. But under the General's auspices, the company was reduced to making crappy, generic cars that were not only an insult to the Saab name, but which sent loyal Saab buyers screaming from their showrooms. The final ignominy came when Saab was nearly killed off, a victim of the GM bankruptcy. Thankfully, Dutch supercar maker Spyker stepped in at the last minute and saved them. Now chairman Victor Muller says that he intends to return Saab to their roots as a manufacturer of unique, interesting vehicles for people who want something a little different. He says it his intention to return them to what they were before the GM takeover, and that he is not necessarily interested in having a massive market share. I almost wept tears of joy.