124 replies to this topic

[Manoka]

If bombs fall on Kyiv, Poland will respond. Mark my words. If Mariupol falls, they will declare a state of emergency. And Kharkov is gonna start seeing tank battles like it saw back in WWII all over again. 

Also just wanted to gloat for a moment, back almost a year ago when some posters on these forums refused to believe that Russian forces were in Crimea and then Putin came out and said that they were, in fact, Russian forces. Lol. Good times .

I distinctly remember one of them attacking me, too. 

 

Doesn't seem like a rash or illogical decision, looking back. 

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I think one of the most interesting developments has been China's recent multibillion dollar loan to the Ukrainian government. Apparently they don't like the idea of an expansionist Putin any more than the rest of his neighbors. Except they have the power to do something about it.

[Manoka]

Well, there's also probably less fear of war. America is terrified of the idea of war, with a lot of the people in power not wanting to be seen as responsible for starting a war, since all wars will have conspiracy theories formed around them. It's about the oil, right? 

 

The reason I hate these types of arguments though, is that it removes the idea of necessity. That as bad as war is, sometimes it can be necessary to do so. The democrats always say, carbon dioxide will be the bane of man! Well, let's see we all got filters on our mufflers, and that eliminated pollution 100%. Or that we started burning oil in coal turbines instead, and had algae absorb all the exhaust, and use electric cars. Does that change the fact that it's rising in cost, makes us too dependent on foreign trade, and also that we'll run out in 40 years? No. Whatever dismal effects might occur in the next 200 years of fossil fuel consumption presumes that when our population is industrialized 10 times more than it is now and doubles, that we'll still have any fossil fuels left by then. When you make carbon dioxide the enemy, people focus on the wrong things. When you distort the problem and get people to attack a made up lie rather than the real enemy, to use the military as a vehicle to voice your discontent on George bush, instead of accusing him of what he actually did, which was be incompetent, we in the long run, shoot ourselves in the foot. 

 

 

When you say all war is evil, that the entire machine is the devil, then any war now becomes a war for profit. When in reality, war can be, at times, a necessity. Power is also a necessity. Corporations are evil! Except for solar panel corporations, right?

 

I hate these all or nothing arguments. It's self destructive to a point where, well, we are where we are today. Hopefully, people will come to their senses and just make sense of things instead of always being a single way. In the meantime, tensions will escalate until it may be too late to do anything realistic about it and it spirals out of control. If we had done something back when he challenged us all those years ago, we might have had Syria, and might not have Ukraine, now. 

 

 

I abhor violence. I hate war. I love soldiers, I hate war; soldiers hate war the most, since they fight and die in it. But, the fact of the matter is, it's coming. It's all a matter of how quickly we nip this in the bud, or let it get out of control. Waiting 10 years to get involved in WWII was a mistake we should never repeat, and likely are. Well, I only want poland, right? I only want Belgium? I only want Czechoslovakia? I only want Kuwait! 

 

Will history repeat itself again? God I hope not. But, we're nearing that path. "I swear guys, I only want Crimea! ...and all of Ukraine! And most of Europe..." Better red, than dead. 

Edited by Manoka, 22 February 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[Justavictim82]

I think one of the most interesting developments has been China's recent multibillion dollar loan to the Ukrainian government. Apparently they don't like the idea of an expansionist Putin any more than the rest of his neighbors. Except they have the power to do something about it.

 

Or maybe because they need Ukraine. 

 

http://www.channel4....stment-overseas

[Manoka]

I think one of the most interesting developments has been China's recent multibillion dollar loan to the Ukrainian government. Apparently they don't like the idea of an expansionist Putin any more than the rest of his neighbors. Except they have the power to do something about it.

 

Or maybe because they need Ukraine. 

 

http://www.channel4....stment-overseas

Maybe that's part of it

[the rebel]

If bombs fall on Kyiv, Poland will respond. Mark my words.

In the hypothetical world, Poland would do nothing on its own and NATO would outright stop them from doing such a thing.

Both sides in Ukraine are receiving military aid in the form of weapons and foreign fighters as it is.

Most of NATO objects to the USA talking about military aid as that will be throwing a match into the tinder box and cause a proxy war and massive escalation which would see Ukraine falling than just a tiny part of it.

[the rebel]

I found something interesting that was never widely published in the media was that the independant Gallup organisation on be half of USA polled Crimeans sometime after the referendum.

Which state some interesting public opinions in that area and the eastern Ukraine.

http://www.iri.org/s...16-30, 2013.pdf

http://www.bbg.gov/w...-slide-deck.pdf

Interesting the independant polls falls in line with the supposedly fixed and the reason for lack of observers due to it being "illegitimate" referendum.

Edited by the rebel, 23 February 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[Manoka]

If bombs fall on Kyiv, Poland will respond. Mark my words.

In the hypothetical world, Poland would do nothing on its own and NATO would outright stop them from doing such a thing.

Both sides in Ukraine are receiving military aid in the form of weapons and foreign fighters as it is.

Most of NATO objects to the USA talking about military aid as that will be throwing a match into the tinder box and cause a proxy war and massive escalation which would see Ukraine falling than just a tiny part of it.

Yes, but not from any major military, like say, Russia. You've got mercenaries and whatnot on both sides, but not thousands of forward detachment groups taking over key areas. 

[Chax]

Lol how's that better standard of living working out for you, Crimea?

[the rebel]

Lol how's that better standard of living working out for you, Crimea?

Its probably a lot better than being bombed/shelled for months on end by the Ukrainian army and fascist Azov battalions in Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkiv, and Odessa among other places.

Crimea is going peachy compared.

[Manoka]

Lol how's that better standard of living working out for you, Crimea?

Its probably a lot better than being bombed/shelled for months on end by the Ukrainian army and fascist Azov battalions in Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkiv, and Odessa among other places.

Crimea is going peachy compared.

Do you have any proof Ukraine is doing the shelling?

 

Because, from what I hear, it's largely Russia and the Rebels. Especially considering the fact that where most the shelling is occurring, Ukraine troops aren't even present, let alone artillery. And if you're going to imply it's impossible for them to have artillery since they are rebels, remember, they have everything up to tanks and anti-air missiles, like Buk systems... and Russia just says it's troops are "on vacation" over there, so the idea that, this is impossible for them to have done the shelling, is also a bit incredulous at this point.

Edited by Manoka, 26 February 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[the rebel]

Yeah because the rebels really want to shell themselves and the areas they control.

The Ukrainians removing there 100mm+ weaponry away from the front lines was there for show and not used.

OK.

[Manoka]

Yeah because the rebels really want to shell themselves and the areas they control.

The Ukrainians removing there 100mm+ weaponry away from the front lines was there for show and not used.

OK.

The Rebels want to shell the areas to keep the civilians under check or get them to leave so they can take it over easier. They want their own country after all, and an enormous part of the population disagrees with becoming a part of Russia, or I mean, "New Russia", which will undoubtedly in less than a day be annexed into Russia. 

 

As well, the Ukrainian forces try to enter the area to retake it, so they attack their positions while they're in the city. They don't themselves, they shell the city, where the Ukrainians are at. 

Edited by Manoka, 26 February 2015 - 05:18 PM.

[the rebel]

*Yawn* you're like a Holocaust denier, the facts are there but you don't listen.

Edited by the rebel, 26 February 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

The ceasefire seems to be holding for now, but they're arguing over gas payments/supplies. Assuming that gets resolved (Ukraine just sent a "down payment" to Russia to keep the gas flowing) it looks like Ukraine will be left in basically the position many of us predicted back when this all started: effectively divided into two nations, with the eastern region a de facto part of Russia and the Western region a rump independent Ukraine.

 

Then Putin can turn his attention to those crafty Moldovans...

[Manoka]

*Yawn* you're like a Holocaust denier, the facts are there but you don't listen.

When those "facts" are from RT or Russian propoganda sights, I tend to not to. xP

Edited by Manoka, 27 February 2015 - 03:25 PM.

[Manoka]

Opposition to Ukraine intervention shot to death in Russia

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-31669061

[the rebel]

The ceasefire seems to be holding for now, but they're arguing over gas payments/supplies. Assuming that gets resolved (Ukraine just sent a "down payment" to Russia to keep the gas flowing) it looks like Ukraine will be left in basically the position many of us predicted back when this all started: effectively divided into two nations, with the eastern region a de facto part of Russia and the Western region a rump independent Ukraine.

Then Putin can turn his attention to those crafty Moldovans...

The 2 day gas payment isn't solving much and the dispute over gas received it wouldn't surprise me if the gas company is taking into account the gas its supplying to Eastern Ukraine since Kiev cut supplies to rebel held territory.

I wouldn't be too optimistic as there has been many times fighting has declined.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Indeed. My guess is that this is the status quo for the next 6-12 months, i.e. sporadic violence punctuated by periodic ceasefires, but a general state of hostility and tension. Other events, particularly in Syria and Iraq, may affect events in Ukraine. Lots of pieces in play.

[Manoka]

Indeed. My guess is that this is the status quo for the next 6-12 months, i.e. sporadic violence punctuated by periodic ceasefires, but a general state of hostility and tension. Other events, particularly in Syria and Iraq, may affect events in Ukraine. Lots of pieces in play.

It's kind of a nightmare scenario. I doubt this is going to be forgotten anytime soon, and it escalated really quickly. It goes to show that Russia isn't a country that can be reasoned with. We may think at any point in time we're on good relations with them, but their volatility means they'll just do whatever. 

 

At this point, I'm hoping it's not a secret that Russian troops are in Ukraine, and actively seeking military objectives, in many cases, directly over there. Russian doesn't care how it gets what it wants, and has a bit of a delusional streak, since they think the rest of the world will buy their stories, the way they're convinced their people do (who just don't speak out ,due to the laws). 

 

 

All of this anti-ukraine stuff, being Nazis, eating babies, shelling their own cities, shooting down the aircraft and gunning down politicians who support them to make Russia look bad, I'm hoping we can see through this paper thin propaganda campaigns. Most of us, anyways. The world is moving towards a scary place, and everything seems to be spiraling downwards, perhaps in reality, worse than it ever was in the cold war. 

 

Russia never sent bombers to the U.S. during the cold war, let alone .5 miles from our legal borders. In some cases, reportedly slightly past it. They would have never dreamed of accidentally provoking the Americans, now it's daily. 

 

 

Things are starting to get pretty bad, and Putin is using nasty strategies which really serve nothing but to make the situation worse.