40 replies to this topic

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As you know by now unless you've been living under a rock, Pope Benedict XVI announced he will resign the papacy on Feb. 28, citing ill health.  This is the first time in nearly 600 years that a pope has resigned, and it opens up all kinds of protocol questions.

 

What do you do with an ex-pope?  What will his title be?  Will he just go back to being a cardinal?  Or will he get some special designation?

 

The British monarchy faced a similar quandary in 1936 when King Edward VIII abdicated to marry American divorcee Wallis Simpson.  They finally settled on a unique title, HRH the Duke of Windsor.  Perhaps the Vatican will do something similar.  My guess is that the ex-pope will retain the style "His Holiness" regardless.

[Infopowerbroker]

Perhaps he will start a business in water filtration?

[Haflinger]

He won't retain the title His Holiness.

 

The last time a pope resigned was in 1415. It was to resolve a schism that had developed.

 

Most likely, I think, they'll make him a member of the College of Cardinals. His advanced age makes it more difficult for him to perform the public duties of a pope but cardinals don't have the same kinds of physical demands on them.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

"His Holiness" isn't a title, it's a style.  They are slightly different.  I bet he keeps it.  No way he goes back to being simply "His Eminence" like other cardinals (but see below—there's no guarantee he would even be a cardinal).  Ex-presidents still retain the style "Mr. President" after leaving office.  In fact almost all former heads of state retain the style of their office.

 

I did a little reading about this today.  Apparently by becoming pope he effectively resigned his position as a cardinal, so technically the only way he can rejoin the College of Cardinals after stepping down is if he is re-appointed by the next pope.  He does, however, remain a bishop, which as a sacrament of the church cannot be resigned.  But remember, he steps down on Feb. 28, at which point there will not be a successor yet.  So technically, once he is no longer pope, he would become simply Bishop Joseph Ratzinger.  But that seems unlikely.  My guess is that Vatican officials are working on this right now, and that arrangements will be made for the former pope's status before he vacates the office.  He will continue to reside in the Vatican.

[Ellis]

The last time a pope resigned was in 1415. It was to resolve a schism that had developed.

 

Even then, he was pretty much forced to resign, IIRC, the last time it was a completely voluntary resignation like this was 750~800 years ago

[Haflinger]

A completely voluntary resignation with no extenuating circumstances? It's possible that there were some in the 3rd century. But that seems unlikely, more likely those resignations were because of fear of Roman oppression.

[Alyster]

This is an interesting question as of how to refer to him after he has resigned. The presidents do keep their title like someone mentioned here. However the nobility does not. If a king resigns he will be demoted from his royal majesty to his royal highness if his family stays in power. However if we look at Louis XVI then he ended up as simply citizen Louis Capet. [lol they even got his family name wrong; Capet dynasty was long gone]. Emperor Nikolai II also ended up as a citizen Nikolai Romanov. 

 

I'd put my money on him being appointed as a cardinal with out an office, so he'll be downgraded from His Holiness to His Eminence. 

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Louis XVI and Nicholas II were overthrown; the forces that overthrew them referred to them by common names as a way to humiliate them.

 

The Netherlands has a long tradition of monarchs abdicating in favor of their children, and in fact Queen Beatrix recently announced her intention to do so.  When she does she will still be Her Majesty, however, and will be known as Queen Beatrix the Queen Mother.

 

Under the British system (generally the most familiar to Americans) monarchs are referred to as His (or Her) Majesty, abbreviated HM, and referred to as "Your Majesty."  There are no specific rules governing titles and styles on the event of a monarch's abdication, because such events are exceedingly rare and, throughout most of history, generally accompanied by the ex-monarch having their head chopped off.  The one time it happened in modern history was 1936, when King Edward VIII abdicated.  At that time it was decided that he would revert to the style His Royal Highness, abbreviated HRH.  This was done because, although he was no longer king, he was still the son of a king, and therefore a prince of the blood.  The children and grandchildren of a monarch are always royal, and therefore HRH; this cannot be taken away.  The same is true for titles of nobility, unless Parliament has passed an Act of Attainder, these titles and styles cannot be taken away.

 

(Interesting side note:  The child of Prince William and Kate Middleton would not, technically, be royal upon birth.  This is because he or she would be the great-grandchild of a sitting monarch, and therefore one generation too far from the throne for royal status.  However, the Queen will issue letters patent before the child's birth bestowing royal status, and therefore the HRH, so that the child of the heir to the throne will not be a commoner!)

 

The papacy is an unusual institution in that it resembles a royal court in many ways, yet its leader is elected.  My suspicion is that, as an honorific, Benedict will either retain the style His Holiness or be assigned some other, unique title and style to represent his status as a former pope.  If not, however, then according to Canon law he would revert to being simply Bishop Joseph Ratzinger (with the style His Excellency) on 8pm February 28, 2013, when his resignation takes effect.

[Haflinger]

My suspicion is that he will be a Bishop (which is My Lord or His Excellency, or the Most Reverend or the Right Reverend depending on where you are) for about two-three hours until his successor appoints him to the College.

[*Anastasia]

"His Holiness" isn't a title, it's a style.  They are slightly different.  I bet he keeps it.  No way he goes back to being simply "His Eminence" like other cardinals (but see below—there's no guarantee he would even be a cardinal).  Ex-presidents still retain the style "Mr. President" after leaving office.  In fact almost all former heads of state retain the style of their office.

In Canada, our Governor General, who for all intents and purposes is our head of state when the Queen isn't in the country, is styled "His Excellency the Right Honourable" while in office, but is not entitled to use "the Right Honorable" after leaving office, making his style simply "His Excellency".

All of this is sort of moot, however, because while the Pope is head of state of Vatican City, his style is not derived from that office, but rather from the fact he is Bishop of Rome, so you can't really compare his office or style to those of secular or temporal leaders.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

The conclave to choose Benedict's successor doesn't even start until two weeks after his resignation.  It took 17 days to elect Benedict, despite his being widely viewed as the clear frontrunner.  There is no frontrunner this time, and the rules have since been changed to require a supermajority.  I would not be surprised if there is no pope for a month or more.

 

For Canadian governors-general, the "Right Honorable" designation derives from their being members of the Privy Council.  So long as they remain members (which is usually for life), they retain the postnominal initials PC and are entitled to use the style.  They use the style His (or Her) Excellency while in office, and may or may not lose it when their term is up, depending on what other honors and ranks they hold.  The reason for losing it is because a governor-general is a royal representative; when you address them you are, in effect, addressing the crown.  This ceases to be the case once they leave office.

 

So you can see the confusing thicket of precedent and protocol in which the Vatican finds itself!

 

God I love this stuff.

[*Anastasia]

and the rules have since been changed to require a supermajority.

Odd I'd not heard of this previously. That'll certainly throw a wrench into the works.

Canadian news has been all in a tizzy after Vatican-watcher John L. Allen Jr listed Québécois cardinal Marc Ouellet as the second-leading frontrunner for the office. I somehow have a feeling that we'll be going back to Italians for the foreseeable future, though.

[Haflinger]

Marc Ouellet would certainly be an interesting choice.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Actually few of the candidates getting a lot of buzz are Italian.  Most of the attention is around Cardinals from the developing world, like Africa and South America.  My gut instinct is that the College of Cardinals is not ready to elect an African pope.  And I think a Canadian might suffer for being from North America, a region widely seen as already having too much power in the world.  I think the best bet for a non-European pope is a South American, which would probably be seen as a "safe" choice by the conclave.

[memoryproblems]

I thought that they could start the conclave sooner since he's resigning and not dead?

 

I'm not catholic, but my understanding is that Benedict's future role would be at the discretion of the new pope, otherwise he'll just be a bishop. In the mean-time, he'll probably sleep all day.

 

But shit, as old as he is, that's probably all he does anyway.

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Well, they can have the conclave whenever they want.  Apparently what they wanted was to wait until March 15.

 

These are uncharted waters for the Vatican.  But in all likelihood Vatican officials will have all the details ironed out and signed off by the current pope before he steps down.  One big question everybody's asking is what color he will wear — papal white, cardinal red, or priestly black?

 

I wonder if this is going to set a precedent?  John Paul II spent his final years weak and debilitated and largely unable to fulfill his role; no doubt Benedict's decision has been heavily informed by that experience.  Perhaps in the future all popes will step down when they become too old and sick.  Or perhaps they will even institute a mandatory retirement age, as they did for cardinals.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

I hear a good joke about this today:

 

Q: What do you call the former pope?

 

A: Ex-Benedict.

 

http://instantrimshot.com/

 

Thank you.  I'm here all week.

[Haflinger]

That last joke requires an American accent to be funny. At first I was like "huh?" and then I changed the sound in my head and smiled.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

How would you say it?

[*Anastasia]

How would you say it?

Can't speak for Haf, but I didn't get it at first, either. I'd pronounce 'ex' like the letter 'X', 'ecks', while I'd pronounce 'eggs' closer to the 'ag' in 'agriculture'.

Egg: http://commons.wikim...e:en-us-egg.ogg
Ex: http://commons.wikim...le:en-us-ex.ogg

Not really close enough for my brain to make the connection until Haf explained it :v