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The Other Referendum: 89% of Venetians vote for Independence


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#1 *Anastasia

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:48 AM

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While the world's been preoccupied with desperately trying to discredit the Crimean referendum, another coastal European region was also voting on independence. Between 16 and 21 March, citizens of the Italian region of Veneto, which surrounds the historic city of Venice, voted in a plebiscite on whether to break from Rome and once again become an independent state. While non-binding, pro-independence leaders, including the region's President, stated before the referendum that if Venetians indicated support for independence, they would take steps to move forward with implementing it, regardless of Rome's response.

Well, the results are in, and 89% of ballots cast favored independence. That's quite a wide margin: almost as wide as Crimea's. Clearly the voting was rigged, right? Clearly people were being forced to vote at gunpoint, right? Right, guys? No, alas, Venetian independence doesn't threaten Western hegemony over Europe, and so no one gives a shit. CBC, Canada's national broadcaster, has not made a single mention of Venice's referendum in the past weeks. While I'm not one to watch the filth that American cable likes to call news, a quick search of CNN's website also returned no relevant results. Al Jazeera had one very small report on the vote, but has not even bothered to report the results.

The takeaway: the only reason most Westerners even know there was a referendum in Crimea is because their governments and news media sought to discredit it to demonize the actions of Russia. If there wasn't such a big push to make Americans afraid their country's no longer the global superpower it thought it was, I doubt Crimea'd get so much as a ticker-tape mention.



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#2 Chax

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 03:07 AM

Or it could be because another country invaded Crimea before the election and refused to allow international observers in, took over foreign military bases, and brutally beat dissenters. That might have something to do with it. Also, you even mentioned that Al Jazeera hardly mentioned it; clearly it's not "Hurr American media isn't paying attention", but it's something that doesn't warrant the attention of international news agencies. Did you know Transnistria voted to be annexed by Russia this week and hasn't been permitted into Russia yet? Did you know there's an active secession movement in Oregon? Did you know Siskiyou County voted to form a new state out of California last year?

You're trying too hard to defend Russia. When they/their Crimean strongmen stop beating journalists, evicting Tatars, and assaulting pro Ukrainians with bricks, sometime after they stop taking over Ukrainian navy vessels at gunpoint and/or shooting Ukrainian soldiers to death, you might have a point. Until then, stop with the AMERIKKKA IS EVIL!!! crap. I'm just about as far-left as they come, and I tend to be extremely critical of the US government. However, Crimea isn't an example of America being in the wrong. It's legitimately the entire world (except Syria and North Korea) saying that Russia should respect Ukraine's boundaries and allow for fair elections.

Western media has no stories on the Veneto thing though, right?

Well except this:
http://www.nbcnews.c...ferendum-n56996

and this:
http://www.telegraph...referendum.html

Don't forget this:
http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-26604044

I think you dropped this one:
http://globalnews.ca...ependence-vote/

Hold on, don't come in the house yet, I think you stepped in this:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101511134

Before you go, don't forget to grab your bag of:
http://www.dailymail...dent-state.html

#3 Rogal Dorn

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:18 AM

While the world's been preoccupied with desperately trying to discredit the Crimean referendum, another coastal European region was also voting on independence. Between 16 and 21 March, citizens of the Italian region of Veneto, which surrounds the historic city of Venice, voted in a plebiscite on whether to break from Rome and once again become an independent state. While non-binding, pro-independence leaders, including the region's President, stated before the referendum that if Venetians indicated support for independence, they would take steps to move forward with implementing it, regardless of Rome's response.

Well, the results are in, and 89% of ballots cast favored independence. That's quite a wide margin: almost as wide as Crimea's. Clearly the voting was rigged, right? Clearly people were being forced to vote at gunpoint, right? Right, guys? No, alas, Venetian independence doesn't threaten Western hegemony over Europe, and so no one gives a shit. CBC, Canada's national broadcaster, has not made a single mention of Venice's referendum in the past weeks. While I'm not one to watch the filth that American cable likes to call news, a quick search of CNN's website also returned no relevant results. Al Jazeera had one very small report on the vote, but has not even bothered to report the results.

The takeaway: the only reason most Westerners even know there was a referendum in Crimea is because their governments and news media sought to discredit it to demonize the actions of Russia. If there wasn't such a big push to make Americans afraid their country's no longer the global superpower it thought it was, I doubt Crimea'd get so much as a ticker-tape mention.


but mvp, the u.s. government has to distract/remind the american people that there are big bad nations out there like russia who are so much worse than the u.s. to justify their own illegal actions... like spying on their own citizens for instance.
 

Or it could be because another country invaded Crimea before the election and refused to allow international observers in, took over foreign military bases, and brutally beat dissenters. That might have something to do with it. Also, you even mentioned that Al Jazeera hardly mentioned it; clearly it's not "Hurr American media isn't paying attention", but it's something that doesn't warrant the attention of international news agencies. Did you know Transnistria voted to be annexed by Russia this week and hasn't been permitted into Russia yet? Did you know there's an active secession movement in Oregon? Did you know Siskiyou County voted to form a new state out of California last year?


Congratulations, you can read the news. /claps for you being able to read one word after another. Here's your ribbon for reading the news.
 

You're trying too hard to defend Russia. When they/their Crimean strongmen stop beating journalists, evicting Tatars, and assaulting pro Ukrainians with bricks, sometime after they stop taking over Ukrainian navy vessels at gunpoint and/or shooting Ukrainian soldiers to death, you might have a point. Until then, stop with the AMERIKKKA IS EVIL!!! crap. I'm just about as far-left as they come, and I tend to be extremely critical of the US government. However, Crimea isn't an example of America being in the wrong. It's legitimately the entire world (except Syria and North Korea) saying that Russia should respect Ukraine's boundaries and allow for fair elections

 
Evicting the tatars eh, you must be in a time machine because that was Stalin's thing.... seventy years ago. Keep blaming modern russia for that injustice though. By that logic you probably still think descendants of the japanese imperialist army are raping nanking as we speak.
 
Yes, the crimeans who voted for independence are so repressed by the Russians that instead of fighting the russian occupying army they are fighting alongside them against the Ukrainians. But they want to be part of ukraine right? oh... wait...

Actually you should look at nations like Argentina, who has been designated by the u.s. as a "Major Non-NATO Ally" for two decades, who is siding with russia too. But keep believing it's just Syria and North Korea buddy.

Edited by Rogal 'trouble' Dorn, 23 March 2014 - 04:21 AM.


#4 KiWi

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:58 AM

http://news.yahoo.co...0--finance.html

http://en.wikipedia...._Crimean_crisis

Link to cited source in respect to Argentina; http://www.un.org/Ne...sc11319.doc.htm

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#5 Manoka

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:48 AM

The voting was rigged because it gave no option for not joining Russia, there were no legitimate outside observers, and they were occupied by a foreign military. 

 

Furthermore, this vote was for independence, not for joining a country that had invaded them and didn't allow outside U.N. observers or fair and unbiased questions when voting.



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#6 Alyster

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:48 AM

Aregntina supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. How on earth do they support Russia? Even Belarus aka Mini-Russia, the still existing USSR state, last dictatorship of Europe, supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. And Iran, an ally of Russia. Rogal your employer should study you, they won't be happy with the result as American servicemen get brainwashed  :P


Edited by Alyster, 23 March 2014 - 06:48 AM.


#7 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 08:44 AM

There's a pretty strong independence movement in northern Italy too.  The most vocal advocates of this is a political party called the Lega Nord (Northern League).  They call the region Padania, and even have a flag for it:

 

Flag_of_Padania.svg

 

However the Veneto thing is a little disingenuous, because this was a non-binding vote organized by the separatists.  So it's sort of like the pro-life crowd in the US organizing a non-binding referendum to end abortion; it's one-sided by its very nature.



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#8 the rebel

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:43 AM

The voting was rigged because it gave no option for not joining Russia, there were no legitimate outside observers, and they were occupied by a foreign military. 

 

Furthermore, this vote was for independence, not for joining a country that had invaded them and didn't allow outside U.N. observers or fair and unbiased questions when voting.

 

There is a "non of the above" choice in general elections, clearly they're rigged too.



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#9 *Anastasia

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:15 PM

However the Veneto thing is a little disingenuous, because this was a non-binding vote organized by the separatists.  So it's sort of like the pro-life crowd in the US organizing a non-binding referendum to end abortion; it's one-sided by its very nature.


Actually, you'll find it was organized by Plebiscite 2013, 'a cross-party nonpartisan committee that campaigns for a referendum on the secession of Veneto from Italy.'

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#10 Alyster

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:24 PM

There's a pretty strong independence movement in northern Italy too.  The most vocal advocates of this is a political party called the Lega Nord (Northern League).  They call the region Padania, and even have a flag for it:

 

Flag_of_Padania.svg

 

However the Veneto thing is a little disingenuous, because this was a non-binding vote organized by the separatists.  So it's sort of like the pro-life crowd in the US organizing a non-binding referendum to end abortion; it's one-sided by its very nature.

Europe's full of that

 

http://en.wikipedia....ments_in_Europe



#11 *Anastasia

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:47 PM

Even Belarus aka Mini-Russia, the still existing USSR state, last dictatorship of Europe, supports Ukrainian territorial integrity.

http://rt.com/news/b...art-russia-657/

Belarusian President Aleksandr Lukashenko has stated that his country accepts that Crimea is now de-facto a part of Russia. “We agree with the Russian Federation on that,” the leader said.

Lukashenko stressed that no one has asked Belarus to recognize or not to recognize Crimea as the federal subject of Russia.

“Crimea isn’t an independent state. It’s part of the Russian territory. One can recognize or not recognize that, it will change nothing,” Lukashenko told journalists in Minsk on Sunday.

“I am asked where my country is in this situation. Taking into account historical processes, in the framework of the CIS, we’re linked with agreements, and we’ll be with [on the side of] the Russian Federation,” the Belarus president added.



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#12 Rogal Dorn

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 03:52 PM

Aregntina supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. How on earth do they support Russia? Even Belarus aka Mini-Russia, the still existing USSR state, last dictatorship of Europe, supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. And Iran, an ally of Russia. Rogal your employer should study you, they won't be happy with the result as American servicemen get brainwashed  :P


The President of Argentina Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, whose nation currently is a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, criticized the United States, the European Union and the United Kingdom stating the hypocrisy that comes from trying to be "guarantors" of the world. Kirchner further stated the double standards of the aforementioned bodies by stating that "a referendum done by Crimea is bad but one done by the 'Kelpers' (the people of the Falkland Islands) is good" in reference to the Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute and its recent referendum in 2013.



#13 Chax

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:09 PM


While the world's been preoccupied with desperately trying to discredit the Crimean referendum, another coastal European region was also voting on independence. Between 16 and 21 March, citizens of the Italian region of Veneto, which surrounds the historic city of Venice, voted in a plebiscite on whether to break from Rome and once again become an independent state. While non-binding, pro-independence leaders, including the region's President, stated before the referendum that if Venetians indicated support for independence, they would take steps to move forward with implementing it, regardless of Rome's response.

Well, the results are in, and 89% of ballots cast favored independence. That's quite a wide margin: almost as wide as Crimea's. Clearly the voting was rigged, right? Clearly people were being forced to vote at gunpoint, right? Right, guys? No, alas, Venetian independence doesn't threaten Western hegemony over Europe, and so no one gives a shit. CBC, Canada's national broadcaster, has not made a single mention of Venice's referendum in the past weeks. While I'm not one to watch the filth that American cable likes to call news, a quick search of CNN's website also returned no relevant results. Al Jazeera had one very small report on the vote, but has not even bothered to report the results.

The takeaway: the only reason most Westerners even know there was a referendum in Crimea is because their governments and news media sought to discredit it to demonize the actions of Russia. If there wasn't such a big push to make Americans afraid their country's no longer the global superpower it thought it was, I doubt Crimea'd get so much as a ticker-tape mention.


but mvp, the u.s. government has to distract/remind the american people that there are big bad nations out there like russia who are so much worse than the u.s. to justify their own illegal actions... like spying on their own citizens for instance.
 

Or it could be because another country invaded Crimea before the election and refused to allow international observers in, took over foreign military bases, and brutally beat dissenters. That might have something to do with it. Also, you even mentioned that Al Jazeera hardly mentioned it; clearly it's not "Hurr American media isn't paying attention", but it's something that doesn't warrant the attention of international news agencies. Did you know Transnistria voted to be annexed by Russia this week and hasn't been permitted into Russia yet? Did you know there's an active secession movement in Oregon? Did you know Siskiyou County voted to form a new state out of California last year?


Congratulations, you can read the news. /claps for you being able to read one word after another. Here's your ribbon for reading the news.
 

You're trying too hard to defend Russia. When they/their Crimean strongmen stop beating journalists, evicting Tatars, and assaulting pro Ukrainians with bricks, sometime after they stop taking over Ukrainian navy vessels at gunpoint and/or shooting Ukrainian soldiers to death, you might have a point. Until then, stop with the AMERIKKKA IS EVIL!!! crap. I'm just about as far-left as they come, and I tend to be extremely critical of the US government. However, Crimea isn't an example of America being in the wrong. It's legitimately the entire world (except Syria and North Korea) saying that Russia should respect Ukraine's boundaries and allow for fair elections

 
Evicting the tatars eh, you must be in a time machine because that was Stalin's thing.... seventy years ago. Keep blaming modern russia for that injustice though. By that logic you probably still think descendants of the japanese imperialist army are raping nanking as we speak.
 
Yes, the crimeans who voted for independence are so repressed by the Russians that instead of fighting the russian occupying army they are fighting alongside them against the Ukrainians. But they want to be part of ukraine right? oh... wait...

Actually you should look at nations like Argentina, who has been designated by the u.s. as a "Major Non-NATO Ally" for two decades, who is siding with russia too. But keep believing it's just Syria and North Korea buddy.
 
 



Oh hey you're wrong

http://en.ria.ru/wor...--Official.html

e: Also, support for Crimean right to self-determination does not equal support of Russian invasion. I don't know how many times I have to say that before you'll listen.

Edited by Ernesto Che Guevara, 23 March 2014 - 04:10 PM.


#14 Manoka

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:40 PM

The voting was rigged because it gave no option for not joining Russia, there were no legitimate outside observers, and they were occupied by a foreign military. 

 

Furthermore, this vote was for independence, not for joining a country that had invaded them and didn't allow outside U.N. observers or fair and unbiased questions when voting.

 

There is a "non of the above" choice in general elections, clearly they're rigged too.

 

Ironically, this particular feature wasn't included in the elections. 



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#15 Alyster

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:02 PM

Aregntina supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. How on earth do they support Russia? Even Belarus aka Mini-Russia, the still existing USSR state, last dictatorship of Europe, supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. And Iran, an ally of Russia. Rogal your employer should study you, they won't be happy with the result as American servicemen get brainwashed  :P


The President of Argentina Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, whose nation currently is a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, criticized the United States, the European Union and the United Kingdom stating the hypocrisy that comes from trying to be "guarantors" of the world. Kirchner further stated the double standards of the aforementioned bodies by stating that "a referendum done by Crimea is bad but one done by the 'Kelpers' (the people of the Falkland Islands) is good" in reference to the Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute and its recent referendum in 2013.

 

You know if you quote someone, you should add a reference. Otherwise it's a deft of intellectual property. Let me help you. 

 

http://en.wikipedia....eferendum,_2014

 

She also went on to say that the vote in Crimea is and I quote her choice of words "worthless" while she kept pushing her own agenda for Falkland islands. 

(http://www.reuters.c...EA2I1GG20140319)

 

Didn't you really bother to look at the map next to the text you copy pasted mindlessly?


Edited by Alyster, 23 March 2014 - 05:06 PM.


#16 Redezra

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:40 PM

Why the hell are you people so hell bent on accepting the shit pumped into you? Russia are the good guys here. I'm not a fan of russia, what with their anti-gay laws and what not, but I can't deny that in this case they've only been looking out for the welfare of their allies.

 

Anyway, back to the topic; wow I didn't know Venice had a referendum o: I'd be quite happy to see them an independant nation state again :3



#17 Chax

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:01 PM

Why the hell are you people so hell bent on accepting the shit pumped into you? Russia are the good guys here. I'm not a fan of russia, what with their anti-gay laws and what not, but I can't deny that in this case they've only been looking out for the welfare of their allies.
 
Anyway, back to the topic; wow I didn't know Venice had a referendum o: I'd be quite happy to see them an independant nation state again :3


Good guys don't evict people from their land. Good guys don't shoot at reporters and international observers. Good guys don't violate the borders of nations in a blatant land-brag. The "shit pumped into us" is also the official line of almost every nation on the planet, along with the UN. Why are you so hell-bent on blowing Putin?

#18 Rogal Dorn

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:03 AM



Aregntina supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. How on earth do they support Russia? Even Belarus aka Mini-Russia, the still existing USSR state, last dictatorship of Europe, supports Ukrainian territorial integrity. And Iran, an ally of Russia. Rogal your employer should study you, they won't be happy with the result as American servicemen get brainwashed  :P


The President of Argentina Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, whose nation currently is a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, criticized the United States, the European Union and the United Kingdom stating the hypocrisy that comes from trying to be "guarantors" of the world. Kirchner further stated the double standards of the aforementioned bodies by stating that "a referendum done by Crimea is bad but one done by the 'Kelpers' (the people of the Falkland Islands) is good" in reference to the Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute and its recent referendum in 2013.


 
You know if you quote someone, you should add a reference. Otherwise it's a deft of intellectual property. Let me help you. 
 
http://en.wikipedia....eferendum,_2014
 
She also went on to say that the vote in Crimea is and I quote her choice of words "worthless" while she kept pushing her own agenda for Falkland islands. 
(http://www.reuters.c...EA2I1GG20140319)
 
Didn't you really bother to look at the map next to the text you copy pasted mindlessly?
 



Awww, I figured you were an astute boy or girl and had the intellectual aptitude to figure out where it was from... being that every link went to a WP article. I'll connect the second dot for your as well.... Every WP article has a section titled "references" I would've assumed you were smart enough to click those for supporting... references for what is stated. BUT if you need me to accomodate you then you let me know. Also, an asinine statement of yours (the one i responded to prior to this) doesn't warrant putting any time or effort into a reply so I took about as much time as it did warrant; a copy/paste job.


Why the hell are you people so hell bent on accepting the shit pumped into you? Russia are the good guys here. I'm not a fan of russia, what with their anti-gay laws and what not, but I can't deny that in this case they've only been looking out for the welfare of their allies.
 
Anyway, back to the topic; wow I didn't know Venice had a referendum o: I'd be quite happy to see them an independant nation state again :3


Good guys don't evict people from their land. Good guys don't shoot at reporters and international observers. Good guys don't violate the borders of nations in a blatant land-brag. The "shit pumped into us" is also the official line of almost every nation on the planet, along with the UN. Why are you so hell-bent on blowing Putin?
 



hahahahaha, you are aware that almost every nation in the world is guilty of evicting people from "their land" right? "Good guys" bahahahha who fits in that category anymore? as i said previously.... almost every nation is guilty of violating borders of nations.

#19 Alyster

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:31 AM

A+ reply

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#20 Chax

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:44 AM


Good guys don't evict people from their land. Good guys don't shoot at reporters and international observers. Good guys don't violate the borders of nations in a blatant land-brag. The "shit pumped into us" is also the official line of almost every nation on the planet, along with the UN. Why are you so hell-bent on blowing Putin?
 
 

hahahahaha, you are aware that almost every nation in the world is guilty of evicting people from "their land" right? "Good guys" bahahahha who fits in that category anymore? as i said previously.... almost every nation is guilty of violating borders of nations.
 


Oh absolutely, and the United States has absolutely no moral ground to stand on when condemning nations for blatant aggression, haha. But I'm not talking about history, I'm talking about right now, and right now the Russians are evicting the Tatars from Crimea. At some point we have to stop excusing actions as business-as-usual and put our foot down as a global community. I absolutely think the US should have been blasted with sanctions for our actions in Iraq, but it wasn't. If this were March of 2003, you'd see me speaking in favor of the French official line regarding the invasion, but it isn't. We've got world bodies in place that are supposed to be used to settle disputes.

Now, had Russia been legitimately afraid for the safety of ethnic Russians, they could have sought OSCE support. They could have mediated via the Budapest Agreement; they could have gone with the CIS; they could have gone with the UN. They could have appealed to all of the above to allow for an independence referendum in Crimea, one which was mediated by an impartial party, but they didn't. Had they done all of the above and been snubbed for it, I would be far more understanding of the course of action they have taken. But they didn't. That's the bottom line.

With regards to the OP itself, don't kid yourself; instability in Italy absolutely challenges American interests. Italy is a NATO member and a solid platform for operations in the MENA region. But the issue of the referendum mentioned isn't big news, you're right. That's largely because nobody invaded to establish the referendum. Nobody has started taking over Italian military bases in the region. It's largely a statement of dissatisfaction with the Italian government, a way to grab their proverbial shoulders and shake them and say "Motherfuckers, don't ignore us anymore. We're on the verge of revolt here."


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