Jump to content


Photo

What if everything you knew about the killing of Osama bin Laden was wrong?


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 14 May 2015 - 04:28 PM

Legendary investigative journalist Seymour M. Hersh has published an article in the London Review of Books alleging that the killing of Osama bin Laden, as it has been portrayed to the American public, is a lie. It's a lengthy article, but well worth the read. Some of the more salient points:

  • Osama bin laden was not hiding in that house in Abbottabad, Pakistan; he was being held prisoner there. Pakistan's intelligence agency, the ISI, had held him in custody since 2006, but had kept this information hidden from the United States.
  • Saudi Arabia paid for bin Laden's upkeep. This means that they, too, knew his whereabouts but did not tell their American allies.
  • Bin Laden's location was not discovered through crack intelligence work, as suggested by the official line, but by a "walk-in," that is, someone who literally walks in off the street with information. In this case the walker in question was a high ranking Pakistani intelligence official, who revealed bin Laden's whereabouts in exchange for protection and the $25 million dollar reward.
  • High ranking Pakistani officials cleared the airspace for the Navy SEAL team and withdrew bin Laden's ISI guards. Contrary to the official report, there was no firefight and bin Laden, an invalid, offered no resistance.

There's more, but that's the meat of it. And Hersh makes some salient points. How did the SEAL team enter Pakistani airspace with impunity? This is a highly militarized nation always poised on the brink of war with its neighbor; they're not likely to take unidentified aircraft entering their territory lightly.

 

Much of the background information, such as bin Laden's having been in ISI custody and his whereabouts being given up by a defector, have been confirmed by independent reporting. So at least that much of the Obama administration's story is a lie. Then there is the fact that, in his first official announcement of bin Laden's killing, the president thanked "our Pakistani allies" for their help, a point that was hotly disputed by the Pakistanis themselves, as well as the administration the next day. The president "misspoke." Yeah, you mean he told the truth?

 

A lot of this sounds more likely than the official story. The very idea that bin Laden was hiding in Abbottabad, a wealthy resort town very close to a major military academy, without the ISI knowing about it, was questionable right from the beginning. And bin Laden's condition as described in the Hersh article jibes a lot better with the images of bin Laden published after he was killed.

 

article-2123575-0CFACB2E00000578-637_634

 

That doesn't look like a guy in control of a global terror network. That looks like a doddering, sick old man living in squalor. That's an oxygen tank behind him.

 

No doubt we will hear more about this. Hersh has great credentials, but he uses a lot of anonymous sources. Still, I think there's more than a germ of truth to it.





Member Awards ()

#2 Thrash

Thrash

    not as gay

  • Former Member
  • 9559 posts
  • Location:Poconos, PA
  • Ruler Name:Thrash
  • Nation Name:Machas
  • IRC Nick:Thrash[Invicta]
  • Nation Link

Posted 14 May 2015 - 05:03 PM

Gee, so Obama lied...

 

Even MSNBC says it, so it's GOTTA be true.



Member Awards ()

#3 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 14 May 2015 - 05:06 PM

Obama lies all the time, especially when it comes to so-called "national security" issues. But yes, generally when news outlets of all ideological stripes are in agreement, there's probably something to the story. That said, more credible sources would need to come forward for anything to come of this. Otherwise it will always be a counterculture conspiracy theory.



Member Awards ()

#4 Manoka

Manoka
  • Internal Affairs: Writer
  • 6520 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A place
  • Ruler Name:deadmanszpiper
  • Nation Name:Manoka
  • IRC Nick:Rawrmansz
  • Nation Link





Posted 14 May 2015 - 05:13 PM

Seems more reasonable? So, based on literally nothing, just guess work, we're going to accept a different version of the story, for fun? Okay, well, it's true Pakistan was giving Osama Bin Laden refuge, and keeping it quite. Pakistan created the Taliban in 1994, and elements of the Pakistani government still supported the Taliban even to today. Osama Bin Laden was found .8 miles from the Pakistani Military Academy, basically the equivalent of America's Westpoint, and this was confirmed by the U.N. given the DNA evidence, and by observers. 

 

The U.S. has violated Pakistan's air space numerous time's, with drone strikes, and with stealth aircraft, such as the B-2 Bomber, or now well known stealth helicopters (that flew under the radar and glided in at the last moment to avoid the super sonic crack associated with the helicopter, which, is a risky maneuver since one of them crashed), basically just modified Blackhawks, also using very low noise helicopter blades, which is considered a major intelligence failure that Obama let this information leak (to be honest, even I was stunned that such things existed, and I'm pretty up to date on stealth technology. It didn't seem possible that a helicopter could fly by without waking up Osama, but now there's actually some good data out on them). 

 

It's probably likely by this point that Osama Bin Laden was not a key leader in the terrorist network, given that he was Old, in hiding, and had lived most of the last couple years in caves or away from the public. There's only so much leading you can do hidden in a secret compound in Pakistan, probably protected by old supporter's of the Taliban. So, all the ideas that he was old and close to death, that he was in Pakistan etc., doesn't really contradict the story at all. 

 

 

The thing a lot of people don't seem to know is that the Taliban were created in 1994, by Pakistan's ISI. The Mujahideen, which were assisted during the soviet Afghanistan war by the U.S., were created around 1980, and fought until 1988, when the soviet Afghanistan war was over. Pakistan, 6 years later, created the ISI, and about 8 years later invaded Afghanistan in an effort to take it over, since Pakistan has always believed they should own the territory. Like Russia in Crimea, it was rather obvious that Pakistan was involved, and provided everything up to and including airstrikes and tanks in Afghanistan. Eventually, Pakistan was exposed, and rather than withdraw it's forces, decided to disown them, and left them there to take over the country. 2 days before 9/11, Massoud, leader of the Afghanistan Mujahideen and local hero, was assassinated by the Taliban, which signaled their effectiveness in taking over Afghanistan. According to the U.N., the Taliban had taken over approximately 90% of Afghanistan, a country never recognized as the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" and a small sliver to the north, known as the Northern Alliance, is where the Americans landed in Afghanistan and worked from in the beginning of the Afghanistan war, which was also where the Mujahideen were located. 

 

He even is known for predicting an attack on U.S. and European soil, and said a few months before 9/11 "If President Bush doesn't help us, these terrorists will damage the U.S. and Europe very soon." There is a national Massoud day, and he's seen as both a Martin Luther King and a War hero, for uniting all of Afghanistan, and supporting woman's rights, which Islam historically is not as fond of. 

 

 

 

So, what is this history lesson about? America did not create the Taliban, not even close. We also didn't create Al Qaeda. It was Pakistan. Other than a complete lack of evidence, there is plenty of evidence opposing the information. We tipped off Pakistan about our missions to capture Osama Bin Laden previously, and he mysteriously managed to escape. This time, we did not, and lo and behold, we managed to capture him. 

 

Most likely, there were moles in the Pakistani intelligence agency that managed to keep him hidden for this long that still supported Pakistan's involvements in Afghanistan. That being said, he most likely wasn't held as a prisoner, but instead as a sort of Hero to the ISI. Not all members, mind you, the power struggles in Pakistan had been quite incredible. They fight the Taliban publicly, now, because of a new leadership, but it's been well known for years that large members of the government still secretly support them. They aren't really two-faced so much as actually having 2 different heads, and quite possibly even 5-6, given how extreme the faction splits are in in their country, that actually control the government. It's a pretty weird place to live, but, the main idea is, not only are none of these ideas substantiated with something like say, evidence, but even if they're true, it doesn't imply that Osama Bin Laden was a prisoner, since we know he was being assisted by Corrupt Pakistan leaders. We also managed to capture the courier long before the timeline of the Pakistani intelligence figure defecting, so we could have confirmed the information from multiple sources. We might just not have believed a walk in from ISI even if the story is true, so he wouldn't have been mentioned as the key asset for confirming Osama Bin Laden's location. 

 

 

No real reason for a conspiracy unless you want one. 

 

The official story seems to make sense, and the conspiracy theory story doesn't necessarily contradict the initial one, except for the whole, he was secretly supported by the entire Pakistan government and Saudi Arabia. For what reason would America have had to lie about this, for fun? It accomplishes nothing while giving the potential to be exposed one day, and takes away from the heroics of being the president in charge at the time who killed Osama Bin Laden. Usually government cover ups have some kind of objective in mind, like preventing the public from knowing about a toxic waste spill due to the money it would cost to clean it up, or secret brain washing programs that would leave a negative stain on the government, or even factions within the government hiding from the rest of the government, and existing only due to compartmentalization, like a single corrupt senator or something bank rolling some corrupt operation; Mitt Romney has billions, could maybe held fund an organization off the books, or even Obama with his billions in campaign money. I even created a story once about how marines intended to be used as a clean up crew were made from Environmentally Hazardous Containment units, who could quarantine an area, kill everyone inside, and do it all under the government's nose, claiming compartmentalization of things like nerve gas or radiation potentially leaking out as a reason no-one but them could enter; they also recruited and trained soldiers in what was supposed to be a high security prison, which is kind of an ideal setting, when you think about it, and also gave them access to people willing to murder others for no reason (I.E. bad people willing to do a bad job). Anyways, there's supposed to be some reason for the conspiracy. If they had no reason other than "the lulz", what would be the point of taking a risk to hide the truth when it really probably would gain nothing? 



Member Awards ()

#5 Justavictim82

Justavictim82

    Better than you

  • Peer
  • 2233 posts
  • Gender:Born without genitals, proud of it
  • Location:Ohio
  • Ruler Name:justavictim82
  • Nation Name:AllaboutthePentiums
  • IRC Nick:Justavictim82[Invicta]
  • Alliance Name:Horse love
  • Nation Link




Posted 14 May 2015 - 06:00 PM

See I don't know if Hersh point is valid as well on the no resistance part. Why would bin Laden be killed if he offered no resistance? Wouldn't it be better for hearts and minds here if Osama was brought to justice? He may be onto something here but there are still holes in the story.

Member Awards ()

#6 Haflinger

Haflinger

    Flipper

  • Foreign Diplomat
  • 10259 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Ruler Name:Haflinger
  • Nation Name:Llonach
  • IRC Nick:Haflinger
  • Nation Link

Posted 14 May 2015 - 06:06 PM

See I don't know if Hersh point is valid as well on the no resistance part. Why would bin Laden be killed if he offered no resistance? Wouldn't it be better for hearts and minds here if Osama was brought to justice? He may be onto something here but there are still holes in the story.

If he's a sick invalid, then putting him on trial and then executing him wouldn't seem nearly as heroic as the story of the brave SEAL team taking out an Enemy of America.

 

There would also be the worry that bin Laden, who was always a popular figure in the jihadist world, might use a trial as a pulpit to cause more problems. Dead, he's not charismatic anymore.



Member Awards ()

#7 Manoka

Manoka
  • Internal Affairs: Writer
  • 6520 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A place
  • Ruler Name:deadmanszpiper
  • Nation Name:Manoka
  • IRC Nick:Rawrmansz
  • Nation Link





Posted 14 May 2015 - 08:03 PM

See I don't know if Hersh point is valid as well on the no resistance part. Why would bin Laden be killed if he offered no resistance? Wouldn't it be better for hearts and minds here if Osama was brought to justice? He may be onto something here but there are still holes in the story.

If he's a sick invalid, then putting him on trial and then executing him wouldn't seem nearly as heroic as the story of the brave SEAL team taking out an Enemy of America.

 

There would also be the worry that bin Laden, who was always a popular figure in the jihadist world, might use a trial as a pulpit to cause more problems. Dead, he's not charismatic anymore.

Dead, he's a Martyr who inspires more tales of vengeance in his place. As a sick, old man who has been in hiding in fear of an American attack, despite trying to tell his followers to suicide themselves for his cause, he loses a lot of credibility. 

 

Most likely, the reason they didn't capture him alive is because they weren't able to. A living person to interrogate and get information from would have been a lot better, not to mention as a bargaining chip or leverage could do a lot. Plus, the U.S. wouldn't be allowed to execute him anyways, they would have to give him back to Afghanistan to put on trial and execute or something, like with Saddam. The U.N. doesn't allow executions anymore, and the only way to put him on trial for international crimes would be to do so in the U.N.



Member Awards ()

#8 slimshadyinc

slimshadyinc
  • Former Member
  • 503 posts
  • Ruler Name:slimshadyinc
  • Nation Name:United Freedom State
  • Nation Link


Posted 14 May 2015 - 09:13 PM

Why does it seem like this story is such much more likely and real then the almost storybook story I've always heard on the news. You know, the SEALS go in, lose a chopper, Osama hides behind a woman, they shoot him, dump his body out in the ocean. Sounds like an action movie. This story sounds like what actually would have happened. Anyhow, you might not believe me but I always said Osama was in Pakistan. Basically because I thought it was suspicious that they would never let us look for him there. And then oh hey look at that, Osama was in Pakistan. Obviously they where protecting him. To that I have no doubt! So overall this wouldn't surprise me at all.

Member Awards ()

#9 Princess xR1

Princess xR1

    Total Bitch

  • Former Member
  • 1631 posts
  • Ruler Name:xR1 Fatal Instinct
  • Nation Name:Brotherhood of Steel
  • IRC Nick:xR1_Fatal_Instinct
  • Nation Link

Posted 14 May 2015 - 09:30 PM

I heard this guy is a kook.



Member Awards ()

#10 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 15 May 2015 - 07:09 AM

I heard this guy is a kook.

 

He famously exposed the My Lai massacre in Vietnam and later went on to be a thorn in Richard Nixon's side. Right-wingers don't like him.

 

 

See I don't know if Hersh point is valid as well on the no resistance part. Why would bin Laden be killed if he offered no resistance? Wouldn't it be better for hearts and minds here if Osama was brought to justice? He may be onto something here but there are still holes in the story.

 

 

Read the article. The alleged agreement with the Pakistanis was that bin Laden had to die. They did not want their complicity revealed.



Member Awards ()

#11 Shokkou

Shokkou
  • Banned
  • 1922 posts

Posted 15 May 2015 - 07:21 AM

He famously exposed the My Lai massacre in Vietnam and later went on to be a thorn in Richard Nixon's side. Right-wingers don't like him.

All I can think of when I see this is "Right-wingers hate him! Learn how to expose government corruption with this one weird trick!"



#12 Manoka

Manoka
  • Internal Affairs: Writer
  • 6520 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A place
  • Ruler Name:deadmanszpiper
  • Nation Name:Manoka
  • IRC Nick:Rawrmansz
  • Nation Link





Posted 15 May 2015 - 08:58 AM

Why does it seem like this story is such much more likely and real then the almost storybook story I've always heard on the news. You know, the SEALS go in, lose a chopper, Osama hides behind a woman, they shoot him, dump his body out in the ocean. Sounds like an action movie. This story sounds like what actually would have happened. Anyhow, you might not believe me but I always said Osama was in Pakistan. Basically because I thought it was suspicious that they would never let us look for him there. And then oh hey look at that, Osama was in Pakistan. Obviously they where protecting him. To that I have no doubt! So overall this wouldn't surprise me at all.

Well, they're Navy Seals, it's going to appear like an action movie, what with all the movies based on them. 

 

As well, it was like 40 guys vs. 3-4 main bad guys, in the dead of night, violating international laws, and them losing a helicopter almost entirely due to bad piloting. That's not really action hero material, to me. Not some lone wolf breaking into the compound killing 30-40 guys, but 30-40 guys breaking into a compound mostly filled with woman and children, locating just the bad guy and a few of his associates, and killing them with they put up a threat. After losing a helicopter unnecessarily and having to resort to blow it up. After 10 years of chasing a guy, who mostly lived in caves, and now is in a house, down. 



Member Awards ()

#13 the rebel

the rebel
  • Former Member
  • 1961 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester UK
  • Ruler Name:the rebel
  • Nation Name:rebellion
  • IRC Nick:TheRebel
  • Nation Link

Posted 15 May 2015 - 02:09 PM

See I don't know if Hersh point is valid as well on the no resistance part. Why would bin Laden be killed if he offered no resistance? Wouldn't it be better for hearts and minds here if Osama was brought to justice? He may be onto something here but there are still holes in the story.


For the same reason he was dumped...I mean buried at sea.

Member Awards ()

#14 Haflinger

Haflinger

    Flipper

  • Foreign Diplomat
  • 10259 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Ruler Name:Haflinger
  • Nation Name:Llonach
  • IRC Nick:Haflinger
  • Nation Link

Posted 15 May 2015 - 07:45 PM

There would also be the worry that bin Laden, who was always a popular figure in the jihadist world, might use a trial as a pulpit to cause more problems. Dead, he's not charismatic anymore.

Dead, he's a Martyr who inspires more tales of vengeance in his place. As a sick, old man who has been in hiding in fear of an American attack, despite trying to tell his followers to suicide themselves for his cause, he loses a lot of credibility.

You really don't understand the jihadist psyche. Jihadists see nothing wrong in hiding their sick and injured. They do it all the time.
 
Suicide bombers volunteer themselves. Many of them see it as a road to redemption, a way to redeem themselves for the wrongs that they have committed. Their leaders are virtuous, or so they believe, and don't need to commit suicide to go to Heaven.
 

Most likely, the reason they didn't capture him alive is because they weren't able to. A living person to interrogate and get information from would have been a lot better, not to mention as a bargaining chip or leverage could do a lot.

bin Laden was not a military leader by the time he was assassinated. He had no asset value beyond a propaganda victory for Obama to show some progress in the war on terror.

 

Plus, the U.S. wouldn't be allowed to execute him anyways, they would have to give him back to Afghanistan to put on trial and execute or something, like with Saddam. The U.N. doesn't allow executions anymore, and the only way to put him on trial for international crimes would be to do so in the U.N.

He was a Saudi citizen, and the Saudis would have probably handed him over to the U.S. if that route had been chosen. Like the Pakistanis, they would probably have just said "don't thank us please."

 

You're thinking of the ICC (the International Criminal Court). He could have faced ICC trial conceivably, but it's unlikely. The ICC is set up to try politicians, military leaders, leaders of states, people like that. bin Laden was never that. Individual states can and do try people for war crimes, which is probably what he would have been convicted of had he been tried in the U.S.



Member Awards ()

#15 Manoka

Manoka
  • Internal Affairs: Writer
  • 6520 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A place
  • Ruler Name:deadmanszpiper
  • Nation Name:Manoka
  • IRC Nick:Rawrmansz
  • Nation Link





Posted 16 May 2015 - 01:12 AM

 

There would also be the worry that bin Laden, who was always a popular figure in the jihadist world, might use a trial as a pulpit to cause more problems. Dead, he's not charismatic anymore.

Dead, he's a Martyr who inspires more tales of vengeance in his place. As a sick, old man who has been in hiding in fear of an American attack, despite trying to tell his followers to suicide themselves for his cause, he loses a lot of credibility.

You really don't understand the jihadist psyche. Jihadists see nothing wrong in hiding their sick and injured. They do it all the time.
 
Suicide bombers volunteer themselves. Many of them see it as a road to redemption, a way to redeem themselves for the wrongs that they have committed. Their leaders are virtuous, or so they believe, and don't need to commit suicide to go to Heaven.
 

>Most likely, the reason they didn't capture him alive is because they weren't able to. A living person to interrogate and get information from would have been a lot better, not to mention as a bargaining chip or leverage could do a lot.

bin Laden was not a military leader by the time he was assassinated. He had no asset value beyond a propaganda victory for Obama to show some progress in the war on terror.

 

Plus, the U.S. wouldn't be allowed to execute him anyways, they would have to give him back to Afghanistan to put on trial and execute or something, like with Saddam. The U.N. doesn't allow executions anymore, and the only way to put him on trial for international crimes would be to do so in the U.N.

He was a Saudi citizen, and the Saudis would have probably handed him over to the U.S. if that route had been chosen. Like the Pakistanis, they would probably have just said "don't thank us please."

 

You're thinking of the ICC (the International Criminal Court). He could have faced ICC trial conceivably, but it's unlikely. The ICC is set up to try politicians, military leaders, leaders of states, people like that. bin Laden was never that. Individual states can and do try people for war crimes, which is probably what he would have been convicted of had he been tried in the U.S.

 

Yes, but he would have been tried in international courts anyways. Then probably handed off to Afghanistan to do whatever they want to him, like in Iraq. The U.S. probably wouldn't execute him, like how we didn't execute Saddam, or anyone in Guantanamo. 

 

The point is more along the lines that they would have lost faith in him, as a leader. The only thing is death is going to do to the enemy is stir up more support for the organization. Not all extremist Jihadists work for the same organization, you have ISIS, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Al Shabaab, Al Nusra, and a lot of other organizations. Right now, there seems to be a lot more support for ISIS, so Al Qaeda's favor is waning, but, as you can imagine the Jihadist of today has trouble deciding which group he wants to join, so there really is a need to come off as appealing as an organization and as a leader, rather than just follow a religion blindly, since lots of organizations follow the same religion blindly. 



Member Awards ()

#16 killer04

killer04

    Diplomat of Purple

  • Invicta: Legion People
  • 323 posts
  • Location:Wishes he was in Oregon
  • Ruler Name:killer04
  • Nation Name:Iwait
  • IRC Nick:killer04|Legion
  • Alliance Name:The Legion
  • Nation Link

Posted 16 May 2015 - 01:10 PM

As helicopter pilot, it is not very hard to hide from radar when in the US when people are LOOKING for you. Now, imagine how easy it would be when no one is expecting you to be there, when using less advanced systems, with stealth helicopters, and flying nap of the earth.



Member Awards ()

#17 Haflinger

Haflinger

    Flipper

  • Foreign Diplomat
  • 10259 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Ruler Name:Haflinger
  • Nation Name:Llonach
  • IRC Nick:Haflinger
  • Nation Link

Posted 16 May 2015 - 01:48 PM

Yes, but he would have been tried in international courts anyways. Then probably handed off to Afghanistan to do whatever they want to him, like in Iraq. The U.S. probably wouldn't execute him, like how we didn't execute Saddam, or anyone in Guantanamo. 

The U.S. does not have a history of handing its enemies to the UN. Where are you getting these ideas?
 

The point is more along the lines that they would have lost faith in him, as a leader. The only thing is death is going to do to the enemy is stir up more support for the organization. Not all extremist Jihadists work for the same organization, you have ISIS, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Al Shabaab, Al Nusra, and a lot of other organizations. Right now, there seems to be a lot more support for ISIS, so Al Qaeda's favor is waning, but, as you can imagine the Jihadist of today has trouble deciding which group he wants to join, so there really is a need to come off as appealing as an organization and as a leader, rather than just follow a religion blindly, since lots of organizations follow the same religion blindly. 

IS came from the second al Qaeda, the one founded inside Iraq as a response to the American invasion there. The Taliban and the first al Qaeda were close allies, the Taliban being the ruling body of the old Afghanistan government which helped al Qaeda maintain terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan. That first al Qaeda fell apart when the Taliban fell. Al Shabaab is a Somali group that has no connections to any of the other groups on your list. Al Nusra is a part of the second al Qaeda.

 

So ... what was your point again? You seem to be conflating jihadist-run governments with jihadist guerilla organizations. But these groups you mention are all closely allied. They aren't competing with each other over resources, which seems to be what you're trying to imply.



Member Awards ()

#18 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 16 May 2015 - 05:13 PM

As helicopter pilot, it is not very hard to hide from radar when in the US when people are LOOKING for you. Now, imagine how easy it would be when no one is expecting you to be there, when using less advanced systems, with stealth helicopters, and flying nap of the earth.

 

Pakistan is in a state of near-constant hostility with India, not to mention China; they have fairly sophisticated air defenses. And these choppers would have been flying over heavily populated areas close to military and intelligence assets. The risk of detection would have been extremely high without help from the Pakistanis.

 

And then there's the crashed chopper. Hersh reports that after the mission was completed (i.e. bin Laden was dead) the SEALs waited around for their ride to come pick them up like they were waiting for a bus. One would think that foreign troops conducting operations in a potentially hostile country would not be so casual. Unless, of course, they knew they were in no danger.

 

And how did a helicopter crashing and burning in a residential neighborhood go unnoticed? Abbottabad, it turns out, is a fairly upscale a place — a vacation retreat for government officials from the nearby capital of Karachi (about 40 miles away), and was particularly known for its proportionately high population of intelligence and ex-intelligence officials. Oh, and one of the nation's leading military academies is located there, too. Not exactly the kind of place where a helicopter crash is likely to go unnoticed. Under normal circumstances, one would expect a host of security and emergency personnel to appear in short order. And yet that did not happen. All remained quiet while a helicopter burned and a team of commandos stood around, waiting.

 

I think there is substance here. Whether all of Hersh's assertions are true I cannot say, but at least some of them are. We now know, for example, that bin Laden was indeed in ISI custody, as has been confirmed by multiple reliable sources. His use as an intelligence asset had long since dried up; he was just a sick old man. When US officials found out that Pakistan had him, no doubt they were outraged, and rightfully so. Pakistan is supposed to be our ally, after all (not to mention Saudi Arabia, which supposedly paid for bin Laden's upkeep). No doubt they were told, essentially, "Clear your airspace." Once informed of American intentions, what is Pakistan going to do? Say no? That hardly seems likely. For one thing, their government relies heavily on American subsidies. And any objection would be ignored, the Americans were going to do as they pleased regardless. So the only other option would be armed intervention, and the Pakistanis were not about to risk a confrontation with the United States, a fight they could not possibly hope to win. So the idea that the SEAL team had Pakistani cooperation makes perfect sense.

 

Ah, propaganda. So much easier, yet at the same time more difficult, in the Internet Age. There's always some asshole on Google looking to call you out. Then again, Hersh has been calling out government bullshit since the 60s. So I guess there really is nothing new under the sun.

 

Bottom line: This story sounds a lot more plausible than the Tom Clancy version we have been told.



Member Awards ()

#19 killer04

killer04

    Diplomat of Purple

  • Invicta: Legion People
  • 323 posts
  • Location:Wishes he was in Oregon
  • Ruler Name:killer04
  • Nation Name:Iwait
  • IRC Nick:killer04|Legion
  • Alliance Name:The Legion
  • Nation Link

Posted 16 May 2015 - 05:26 PM

It's kinda cute that you actually think you know how helicopter and aviation operations are conducted. The helos came from a direction that was opposite of China and India. Also once inside the country their chance of radar detection probably would have decreased since anyone on air defenses would be looking out. But again, from experience it is not hard to hide from radar when not trying to hide. It would be even easier depending on the configuration of the radar system. Considering that the area is mountainous it would have made detection even hard then since they were special operations helicopters they have terrain radar to make it where they can fly just above the surface of the earth following contours. When flying right, you can minimize noise, not only that they were probably designed to be quiet. It is common for helos to insert troops, and fly safely away, and wait to be called in for extraction.



Member Awards ()

#20 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

    The Invictan Formerly Known as Jorost

  • Lord Protector
  • 16192 posts
  • Gender:Household pet that walked across the keyboard - male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Ruler Name:Jorost
  • Nation Name:Invicta Crownlands
  • IRC Nick:Jorost
  • Alliance Name:Invicta
  • Nation Link






Posted 16 May 2015 - 05:47 PM

I am just repeating/condensing the opinions of experts who have been interviewed on the subject. The consensus is that the official story sounds fishy. Beyond that, I am not qualified to discuss the technical details. I do know that a burning helicopter in a residential neighborhood is bound to attract attention, however. That's because I am, as we say here in New England, wicked smaht. :grin:

 

Again, my guess is that when the US learned bin Laden's whereabouts, they told the Pakistanis, essentially, "We're coming for him." The Pakistanis, not being idiots, wisely chose to stay out of the way. That's certainly what I would do in that position.



Member Awards ()


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users