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Election Post-Mortem


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#1 *Anastasia

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 04:40 PM

Well, what a wild ride.

I knew last night's election would be close, or at least much closer than the polls and the pundits were predicting. As I've mentioned elsewhere, there were a lot of indicators that Trump had much more support than was being reflected in the polls leading up to Election Day. There were traditionally-Democratic manufacturing workers in the Rust Belt who finally saw in Trump a candidate speaking out against trade agreements that have caused them and their families to suffer. There were young people still desperately trying to break into a stagnant workforce that blamed Obama for their troubles, and who were not keen to give his successor the benefit of the doubt. There were women who didn't want to see the momentous opportunity for America's first female President squandered on someone they viewed as corrupt and unsuited to the office. Above all, there were people who rightly viewed Clinton as the status quo candidate, and who valued change, any change, more than stability.

 

The common thread of these groups is that they've existed since the beginning of the campaign cycle, and their minds had been settled on a Trump vote long before they were in the voting booth. Yet, too, many of these people are not racists. Many of these people are not sexists. Many of these people, despite voting for Trump, do not themselves endorse the hateful, bigoted messages he's been espousing since the dawn of his campaign. Confronted with the disparity between their beliefs and the greatly-condemned social message of the man for whom they nevertheless intended to vote, these people hid. Confronted with the acrimony this most divisive of elections fostered between its opponents, in many cases these people were mum about their true political intentions.

 

The pundits' comparisons between last night's results and those of the Brexit referendum are plentiful, yet they are also apt. Too often when an easy talking point is repeated ad nauseam, that parroting is an indication that a bigger picture is being missed. In this case, however, I do not believe this to be true. Yesterday's elections bear not a mere surface resemblance to Brexit, as elections the analysts failed spectacularly in calling. Rather, the bigger pictures, too, reflect each other. In each case, the side seen likely to lose was plagued with accusations of bigotry and xenophobia. In each case, that side fingered political elites as the cause of economic and social turmoil. In each case, an assumption was made by stakeholders that cooler heads would prevail. Yet in the end, in each case, the presumed losers won because the hope of the political and economic messages they espoused resonated louder with voters than the fear of the hatred and bigotry they also espoused.

 

Thrash and Shokkou have expressed a belief that Republican victories last night were the result of leftist elitism. Make no mistake, however: the bane of the Democrats last night was not leftist elitism, it was an elitism of the center. Hillary Clinton was not a left-wing candidate. She was not a progressive candidate. She was a status quo candidate first, and only. She and the Democratic Party relied not on a message of hope, not on a message of progress or change, for victory. She relied instead on not being Donald Trump, on the belief that she didn't need to expand her base to win the presidency, because Donald Trump would expand her base for her. She gambled on centrism and moderatism, and she lost. The Democratic Party gambled on her centrism and moderatism over a truly progressive, truly left-wing candidate, and they lost.

 

Thrash has further expressed an idea that people like Jorost, disheartened though they are by the election's results, might be pleasantly surprised by a Trump presidency, that, to quote Thrash, 'all the people who deserve it' will be better-off for it. Now, I don't believe Trump's substantive economic policies, such as there are, will be positive for American workers or for the American economy. Yet I am willing to admit that there is a possibility, however slim, that people like Jorost will indeed be pleasantly surprised, much in the same way that I feel people like Thrash might be pleasantly surprised by the effects of democratic socialism. As Jorost expressed in response, however, words like 'deserve' are terribly frightening ones to be hearing.

 

Let's talk about what people deserve, shall we? Political activists deserve to be able to protest at their opponents' events without being beaten and abused. Muslim Americans deserve to be able to live their lives without being harassed, intimidated, or frightened. Illegal immigrants deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, not bartered over like cattle in legislative negotiations. Transgender people deserve to be able to use public restrooms without fear of being harrassed, assaulted, or prosecuted. Queer people deserve to be able to live and marry and adopt children without politicians passing judgment on their moral capability to do so. Women deserve to be treated as human beings with agency, not as sexual objects to be groped or to fulfill the fantasies of powerful men. African Americans deserve to be able to walk down a city street without being stopped by the police, or shot at for reaching into their pockets.

 

Trump's presidency may very well be pleasantly surprising to some of his opponents. It may very well be a net positive for Thrash and Shokkou, and even for Jorost and King Biscuit. Every regime has its winners. It's not for any of you that I fear, though. Please don't misunderstand me: I don't envy any of you one bit; there's not incentive enough in the world to make me want to be in your shoes. All told, however, you're well-positioned to weather whatever is brought by the coming storm.

 

No, it is not for you I fear. I fear for all the people Trump, and more importantly Trump's supporters, have lashed out against throughout the past year. I fear for HordeLorde and other trans people who now have to watch what little support they've been afforded by the federal government in the recent struggles for their civil rights disappear. I fear for Locke's family, Arab-Americans whose lives have undoubtedly already been affected by Trump's race-baiting, and who will only be put in more danger as his message of intolerance becomes the mainstream. I fear for Dua, formerly of LoSS, a Muslim-American woman who yesterday went out and voted, and today has to live with the fear that in a matter of months, the most vitriolic Islamophobe to ever curse the American ballot will be her president. I fear for Sentinal, formerly of TIO, a second-generation immigrant and a queer woman to boot, who now looks upon the country her parents came to for its message of hope and sees foremost the half of that country that valued their own comfort over her human dignity, and the human dignity of all those whom Trump's campaign turned into scapegoats and straw men.

 

Because in the end, it doesn't matter why you voted for Trump. It doesn't matter if you hate Muslims or Latinos, if you view women as either sex objects or pigs. It doesn't matter if it was Trump's economic message, or his antiestablishment message, or his social message that resonated with you, that swayed your vote. You didn't vote for some of Donald Trump's rhetoric; your caveats to his platform don't count. Trump's presidency, whatever it does for you, will do far more to hurt others, and you have to own that. You have to own all of what you voted for. You don't have to like it, but that's your responsibility now.

 

The people Trump will hurt, the people Trump campaigned on a promise of hurting, the people Trump's campaign has already hurt: these people aren't just numbers. They're people like HordeLorde, like Locke, like Dua, like Sentinal. People you know, people you've interacted with. They're your neighbors, your coworkers, your children's teachers, your parents' or grandparents' caretakers. They're people who now fear for their lives. Not just because Trump won, but because his message won. President Trump may not attack and kill Muslim-Americans; his supporters have and will. President Trump may not vandalize queer and trans people's property, his supporters have and will.

 

The message, more than the man, terrifies me. The message, more than the man, won last night's election.





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#2 Thrash

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 05:07 PM

I think you read too far into what I meant by deserve. The people who are not deserving are the law breakers. He ran as a Law & Order candidate. As long as you fall into that, you will be fine. It isn't against the law to be trans, it isn't against the law to be a Muslim, it isn't against the law to be gay, etc, etc, etc. 

 

While what you say about certain supporters may be true, those people are just idiots. They were idiots when Obama was President, they will be idiots while Trump is President and they will still be idiots afterwards. Trump's election hasn't given them free reign to be bigger idiots, it seems that's what you are trying to get at.

 

Guess you weren't aware of this either:

 

http://www.washingto...g-gay-equality/



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#3 The Dark Empire

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 05:55 PM

I think everyone is overly worried. Remember that most of the negative things said about Trump came from the Hilary campaign and may not be entirely true. Many of us have never been to a Trump rally and we are just making assumptions about what he wants to do based on our fears.



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#4 Learz

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 06:00 PM

*
POPULAR

What, I didn't get a shoutout? :P

 

Also, I'm just going to drop this here. Not commenting on it, just providing it for people (since this is the post-mortem thread).



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#5 King Biscuit

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 06:34 PM

As someone who leans left, hell, I DID vote for the Socialist Jew, I am afraid.

But, isn't everyone afraid of change?

 

Certainly, some of it is unfounded, but as for all my friends and family who are either women, gay, atheist, or a combination thereof, I fear for them the most.

Especially if abortions are made illegal, and the rumors of a "Religious Freedom" bill are true.

 

We'll see how this all plays out regardless.



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#6 Thrash

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 06:39 PM

Abortions won't be made illegal, that will never happen. Late-term abortions is a different story, as it should be.



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#7 He who posts

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 06:43 PM

I dont hate gays it's just a pure coincidence I'm surrounded by people who hate gays and have plans to assign people that hate gays to spots that can make it things like gay marriage illegal again.

A vote from Trump was a vote for homopobia and other bigotry. You can dance around it and he can hold as man rainbow flags as he wants.

You now can flaunt your bigotry jus fucking do it or admit your a fucking moron for voting for a oligarchy that doesn't give a flying fuck about you.

Edited by He who posts, 09 November 2016 - 06:44 PM.


#8 He who posts

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 06:52 PM

Clean coal for fuck sake.

#9 King Biscuit

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 06:54 PM

Clean coal for fuck sake.

 

Heh.

Carbon sequestration is a joke.

 

"Let's burn more energy than we produce to make the energy we produce 'clean.'"



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#10 The Dark Empire

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 07:01 PM

Hasn't recent polling shown that most Americans are ok with gay marriage. If the Republicans try to overturn everything people will get upset and the Republicans involved won't get elected next term. Things might get rough these next 2 years but I don't think anything in terms of civil rights will be overturned. 



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#11 Shokkou

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 07:05 PM

I guess I'm just going to leave again and give up for the second time trying to convince everyone they're wrong. See you all again in four (or maybe two) years for another "I told you so." I'm going to be a hell of a lot more smug next time though. Some of you fucks really deserve it. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go back to celebrating this momentous occasion with my gay, straight, trans, cis, white, and nonwhite friends on twitter.
 
2li2BwK.jpg



#12 King Biscuit

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 07:10 PM

So much for being respectful.

 

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.



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#13 Learz

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 07:44 PM

If anyone wants to sit on my lap, they can.

 

 

I'm already pantless, too!



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#14 Manoka

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 08:15 PM

If anyone wants to sit on my lap, they can.

 

 

I'm already pantless, too!

You can trust him, he's an astronaut! :D



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#15 ᗅᗺᗷᗅ

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 09:32 PM

Not all change is good. As we are about to learn.

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#16 *Anastasia

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 02:44 AM

I think you read too far into what I meant by deserve. The people who are not deserving are the law breakers. He ran as a Law & Order candidate. As long as you fall into that, you will be fine. It isn't against the law to be trans, it isn't against the law to be a Muslim, it isn't against the law to be gay, etc, etc, etc.


Alright, setting aside the fact that laws can be changed, judicial rulings can be reversed, and Trump's likely going to get to appoint half the Supreme Court over the next four years, let's look at just a smattering of the laws on the books, shall we? Two in particular, in fact.

In North Carolina, it is presently illegal for trans people to use public restrooms not corresponding to their birth sex. Let's say I'm in North Carolina and I have the audacity to have to urinate (*gasp*), that means I have the option of going into a men's restroom, or being one of those undeserving lawbreakers. But maybe that's not a good enough example for you, because you think I should just go into the men's restroom. Well, you've seen pictures of HordeLorde; should she also go into the men's restroom? What about any of these teenage girls that North Carolina law labels as 'predators?' All undeserving lawbreakers, I guess.

Or perhaps we should look at an issue closer to Trump's heart: illegal immigration. Well, technically, all illegal immigrants are undeserving lawbreakers, but hey, I'm not going to go all bleeding heart on you and try to claim illegal immigration isn't an issue worthy of addressing. What, then, of children? What, then, of adults who illegally immigrated as children, and have lived in the US their entire lives? Sure, paths to citizenship exist for some of them now (though again, laws can be changed, and I'd be quite surprised if a tough-on-illegals president wouldn't push for them to be so changed). But even now, we have cases like that of Adam Crapser. Adam was brought to the US as a three-year-old, but his adoptive parents never filed his citizenship papers, then abandoned him to the foster care system, where he was abused and eventually fell into a life of crime. Now 41 years old, rehabilitated with a wife and four children, he's being deported to South Korea, a country he has no knowledge of, because, as an undeserving lawbreaker two decades ago, he can't get citizenship today.

If these are the plights of the undeserving today, I absolutely fear for what awaits them under a tough-on-crime administration.

 

Guess you weren't aware of this either:

http://www.washingto...g-gay-equality/


Let's assume for a moment that I don't fully agree with Xoin's post on the matter, or that we're both dead wrong. Let's say Trump turns out to be the most pro-gay President America has ever seen. So what? Now suddenly gay people are supposed to champion him and overlook the inflammatory comments he's made towards Muslims, towards Latinos, towards women? 'No, it's okay, guys, he likes us, so fuck the rest of 'em.'

 

 

While what you say about certain supporters may be true, those people are just idiots. They were idiots when Obama was President, they will be idiots while Trump is President and they will still be idiots afterwards. Trump's election hasn't given them free reign to be bigger idiots, it seems that's what you are trying to get at.

 

I think everyone is overly worried. Remember that most of the negative things said about Trump came from the Hilary campaign and may not be entirely true. Many of us have never been to a Trump rally and we are just making assumptions about what he wants to do based on our fears.


I don't need to listen to the negative things said about Trump; I have plenty of examples of negative things said by Trump. Mexico is sending their killers and rapists to America, so we need to build a wall to keep them out. We don't know what the hell is going on with all these Muslims, so we need to ban them from entering the country. 'I'd like to punch him in the face!' I'm not making assumptions about what Trump wants to do based on my fears, I'm not looking at what Hillary Clinton's said about him. I'm looking at his own words and his own campaign promises.

Again, though, even if President Trump is much tamer, much more rational and reasonable, than candidate Trump, a lot of damage has already been done. I repeat: put the message before the man. Since last year, there has been an 89% increase in hate crimes against Muslims. Eighty-nine percent. Are you going to try to tell me that's not a result of Trump's rhetoric? That it's purely coincidental? How about the terrorist plot, uncovered a month ago by the FBI, to attack an apartment building home to a large Somali immigrant population the day after the election?

It's not limited to Muslims, either. In late October, the famous Equality House was riddled with bullets and vandalized with homophobic graffiti. On Election Day, a disabled transgender veteran had her truck torched, with 'Trump' spray-painted across the hood and tailgate.

The problem with arguing that Trump's election hasn't given free reign to these criminal, terrorist bigots (or 'idiots,' as Thrash apparently sees them) is that that's not how they see it. You may not have voted for Trump because of his hateful rhetoric, but these people? You can bet your bottom dollar they did, and now that he's been elected, they have reason to believe the country agrees with them. It doesn't matter if most people don't. It doesn't matter if you don't. If you voted for Trump, in the eyes of those who would commit hateful acts based on Trump's rhetoric, you've endorsed that rhetoric, that hatred, that bigotry.

Never mind that he campaigned on that hatred—Donald Trump doesn't need to do anything to cause harm these groups of people. His election has done that already.



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#17 the rebel

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 04:52 AM

The problem with arguing that Trump's election hasn't given free reign to these criminal, terrorist bigots (or 'idiots,' as Thrash apparently sees them) is that that's not how they see it. You may not have voted for Trump because of his hateful rhetoric, but these people? You can bet your bottom dollar they did, and now that he's been elected, they have reason to believe the country agrees with them. It doesn't matter if most people don't. It doesn't matter if you don't. If you voted for Trump, in the eyes of those who would commit hateful acts based on Trump's rhetoric, you've endorsed that rhetoric, that hatred, that bigotry.

Never mind that he campaigned on that hatred—Donald Trump doesn't need to do anything to cause harm these groups of people. His election has done that already.

I'd disagree with that analysis, people who have real hatred of certain types of people. Don't require permission or encouragement or validation to attack or discriminate against certain people.

Jesus incarnate could become president of the US and turn it into a peace loving demilitarised country and you would still have people wanting to bomb and kill and fly planes into buildings.

Its disgusting to label people and trying t make them feel bad for not voting "correctly". Is it their fault the only real alternative was Clinton?

The Democrats could of put anybody even someone most had never heard of and they would of had a much better chance against Trump.

Edited by the rebel, 10 November 2016 - 04:55 AM.


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#18 *Anastasia

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 01:57 PM

I'd disagree with that analysis, people who have real hatred of certain types of people. Don't require permission or encouragement or validation to attack or discriminate against certain people.

Jesus incarnate could become president of the US and turn it into a peace loving demilitarised country and you would still have people wanting to bomb and kill and fly planes into buildings. 

 

I don't disagree with the idea that hateful people don't require validation, but surely you can see that it doesn't help? I repeat: an 89% increase in hate crimes against Muslims, smashing through even the post-9/11 levels, in the year that Trump's campaign has normalized hate speech against Muslims. That's not coincidental. It's way too early to see how his election will impact those levels, but if 89% is the damage his rhetoric can do when he's not the President, you can't blame Muslims for being fearful of what will come when he is.

 

This, again, is why I've come around to hate speech laws in the past eighteen months. It's not that it's hurtful, or vindictive, or not politically-correct: it's that it normalizes bigotry. Even if it is just a small group of people who believe his destructive scapegoating, Trump's campaign has shown them that it's politically- and socially-acceptable to express it. Now, his election has shown these people that not only is race-baiting and misogyny acceptable, it will be rewarded. That's the frightening prospect of all this.

 

Its disgusting to label people and trying t make them feel bad for not voting "correctly". Is it their fault the only real alternative was Clinton? 

 

No, of course it isn't. I'm not, however, trying to label people who voted for Trump, or shame them for doing so. If you read my original post, you'd see that I absolutely don't believe that most of Trump's voters are bigots. I just don't believe that can excuse them for endorsing Trump's bigotry in the voting booth. For what it's worth, I also don't feel Clinton was a better choice for most of the marginalized groups Trump has attacked, and I'd be just as afraid for some people, and more so for others, had she won. (This pre-election essay is still a good read today as to why.) Again, please don't misunderstand me: I feel Clinton voters are just as responsible for what they voted for as Trump voters. It's just that Clinton didn't win the election, Trump did, so it seems less relevant, or at least less pressing, to call them out on it now.



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#19 King Biscuit

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 03:36 PM

I just gotta say:

I'm loving the civil discourse going on in this thread.

Thank you everyone for being civil and reasonable. 

 

Please continue.

:D



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#20 *Anastasia

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 05:07 PM

As Learz, sharing this article here not because I agree with the arguments it presents, but because I feel it's relevant to the post-mortem thread: I’m a Muslim, a woman and an immigrant. I voted for Trump.

 

The only comment I'll make is that this might be the first time I've ever heard Donald Trump described as 'subtle.'



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