40 replies to this topic

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Thassa lotta colons.

 

Well, as Thrash rightly points out, I have been quite of late. Alas, this has had little to nothing to do with the current state of politics in the United States, woeful and entertaining tho they most surely are. But more on that elsewhere. As for politics...

 

Trump. Jesus Hussein Christ. If I had woken up from being in a coma for the last 18 months, and someone sat me down and told me what has been going on, I would not have believed them. This has been hands-down the most amazing election cycle I have ever seen. And as a well educated student of political history, I can say with some small authority that it is one of the most unusual elections ever.

 

Trump has proven to be a disaster so much worse than anything I ever predicted, that's for sure. But I don't feel bad. I don't think too many people saw this coming. 

 

It certainly looks now like Trump is going to lose, and lose big. I believe I once described such a defeat as being "Goldwater-like," and that is the sobriquet currently being thrown around by the talking heads. But I'm not as confident as most. I think there is a deep well of support for Trump out there, possibly deeper than polling reflects. Trump supporters, in general, do not strike me as the type to take polls. They don't care that he is lying, they don't care that he is crazy, all they care about is that he is going to stick it to those egghead elites. That's really what this is all about. Call it dumb white anger. And there are a LOT of dumb, angry white people out there. No doubt a few will respond to this thread.

 

This dumb white anger factor is what pushed the Brexit vote, and it was entirely unaccounted for by polling. No one saw it coming. The same thing could happen here. Donald Trump could have shitty polls right up until election day and still win. I am not saying that will happen, but it could. I would put the chances at about 30%.

 

My gut kinda wants to make it higher than that, though. This is the pessimist in me. Americans usually get the president we deserve, and maybe we deserve President Donald Trump. Roll that over on your tongue for a while.

 

Why can't we use nukes, he asked repeatedly.

 

I hope Hillary Clinton wins. Not because I like her, because I don't. And I am not going to vote for her (more on that below). But she is sane. She is not an ignorant, racist, self-obsessed egomaniac. She is not dangerous — or at least not any more so than the current president. The same cannot be said for Trump.

 

Why can't we use nukes?

 

As for me, I am voting for Gary Johnson and Bill Weld. This may come as a shock to some of you who know me well, as I have often stated that voting for a third party candidate is tantamount to throwing your vote away. But hear me out; there is method to my flip-flopping.

 

I live in Massachusetts. I can tell you who Massachusetts is going to vote for in November, and in every November for every election to come for the foreseeable future: whoever has a (D) next to their name. We are the bluest of states, and can reliably be counted on to choose the democratic candidate in all but the most extreme circumstances. I would remind you that the 2012 Republican candidate, Mitt Romney, was from our state and was its former governor, but we still didn't vote for him. The Bay State's electoral votes are well and truly accounted for, and thus it is safe for me to use my vote for other ends.

 

In this case, for the Libertarian party to overtake the woebegotten Republicans as the main center-right party in the US. Let the GOP become the Whigs of the 21st century. While I disagree with many Libertarian policies, I do not believe they are extremists. In fact, I know they are not. Because I know one of them.

 

William Weld is not only the former governor of Massachsuetts, he is a friend and distant relation to my family. I have met him on several occasions; he knows me by my first name (I have always called him "Governor"). So when I say I know Bill Weld, I don't just mean as a former constituent. And while I do not agree with all of his politics, Bill Weld is that rarest thing in politics: a man of honor and moral conviction. (He is also delightfully avuncular.) Bill Weld understands that government is not the enemy, and that there are certain roles that only government can fulfill. Bill Weld will not let people go hungry, nor let the sick go untreated. In fact, he and his running mate said as much during the Libertarian town hall on CNN. I don't know Gary Johnson. He seems like a nice guy, and I like a lot (but not all) of what he says. But I have no reason to trust him. Bill Weld is another story. I know Bill Weld, I trust Bill Weld. If he vouches for Johnson, then Johnson is the real deal.

 

Don't get me wrong, the Libertarians cannot win. They simply do not have the money. But if they can get to 15% in the polls they will be allowed in the debates, and that could change the equation in some really interesting ways. I still wouldn't foresee a win, but it is not inconceivable that the Libertarians could come in second, relegating Trump and the GOP to third. That would be AWESOME.

But yeah, we're prolly gonna get Hillary Clinton. First woman president yadda, yadda, yadda.

[Redezra]

All hail clin-ton?

[Shokkou]

You continue to amaze me with you ability to, completely devoid of self-awareness, continue to boldly embody everything about the left that has led to the rise of Trump. Of course the people who disagree with you are dumb, right? If they weren't they wouldn't disagree with you? And what about the non-whites who support Trump? Do you think they're dumb too? Or is it just whites who support Trump that are dumb? I find it amusing, this habit of the left which has long styled itself as a champion of the downtrodden, to suddenly fall over themselves to rush to bed with the very elites they've claimed to be against and decry the people they claimed to support as ignorant the moment they start to turn to the right. It's never been about supporting the lower classes for the left. It's about controlling them, and now that you've lost control you want to use slander and intimidation to bring them to heel.

 

Absolutely disgusting, and you know what? All this does is serve to further inflame the partisan divides that benefit our two-party system. There are, I'm sure, intelligent people who would be very happy to vote Johnson or some other third party candidate who look at statements like this and wonder if it wouldn't be worth it to put off getting those parties to the threshold where they can be more seriously competitive in exchange for sending a message that no one is fooled by this rhetoric anymore.

 

As for the Libertarian party, I think we see as close to eye to eye on this issue as we ever will on anything. In fact, it was because of them that I was excited at the prospect of Trump becoming the Republican nominee. Trump incites so much ire from his own party, as does Hillary. As I've said before, if ever there was an election where third parties had a chance to make noteworthy progress (hitting that threshold of votes) this is it.

[*Anastasia]

I always wondered what the 'H' stood for.

 

I'm a bit surprised you'd opt for the Libertarian ticket over the Greens or SPUSA, but I suppose if you're on good terms with the Veep pick that makes it a bit easier to swallow.

 

As for the election itself, honestly, I couldn't care less who wins. An openly-bigoted president is no worse, in my view, than the secretly-bigoted one. The man who would deport minorities is no worse than the woman whose political history shows just as much contempt for them as her opponent, just masked to be more politically-tolerable. In some ways, that makes Clinton the more dangerous candidate. People are going to go out and vote for her expecting something they're not going to get. (Granted, I'm not certain Trump's supporters are going to get what they're voting for, but that has less to do with him than it does with Clinton on the Dem side.)

 

I still feel Trump is (probably) the worse pick for Americans, and the better pick for the rest of the world. Not because I'm not scared shitless of what might become of his administration, but because at the very least it's bound to isolate America from the rest of the world. Trump, like many Americans, thinks the world needs America. And to a point he's correct—the whole world will suffer, to some degree, without a stable United States. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, in the big picture, and the world no longer accepting America being its big brother? I'd like that.

 

And y'know, if it leads to nuclear holocaust, tough shit. Humanity's had that coming for a long time.

[Redezra]

Nuclear holocaust doesn't help the Illuminati that's for sure.

[Shokkou]

Your scales are showing Redezra. Just who do you think would be in the best position to survive a nuclear holocaust?

[slimshadyinc]

Hey man, a wasted vote is one not casted. I've voted for libertarians last time and I might just this time as well. But I vote on conviction, I feel like that's not a waste. Now staying home and not voting, now that's a waste.

[Redezra]

Your scales are showing Redezra. Just who do you think would be in the best position to survive a nuclear holocaust?

The roaches.

 

Fuck roaches.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Cockroaches, spiders, and rats. It's a combination that'll make for a hell of an ecosystem one day.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

You continue to amaze me with you ability to, completely devoid of self-awareness, continue to boldly embody everything about the left that has led to the rise of Trump. Of course the people who disagree with you are dumb, right? If they weren't they wouldn't disagree with you? And what about the non-whites who support Trump? Do you think they're dumb too? Or is it just whites who support Trump that are dumb? I find it amusing, this habit of the left which has long styled itself as a champion of the downtrodden, to suddenly fall over themselves to rush to bed with the very elites they've claimed to be against and decry the people they claimed to support as ignorant the moment they start to turn to the right. It's never been about supporting the lower classes for the left. It's about controlling them, and now that you've lost control you want to use slander and intimidation to bring them to heel.

 

Absolutely disgusting, and you know what? All this does is serve to further inflame the partisan divides that benefit our two-party system. There are, I'm sure, intelligent people who would be very happy to vote Johnson or some other third party candidate who look at statements like this and wonder if it wouldn't be worth it to put off getting those parties to the threshold where they can be more seriously competitive in exchange for sending a message that no one is fooled by this rhetoric anymore.

 

As for the Libertarian party, I think we see as close to eye to eye on this issue as we ever will on anything. In fact, it was because of them that I was excited at the prospect of Trump becoming the Republican nominee. Trump incites so much ire from his own party, as does Hillary. As I've said before, if ever there was an election where third parties had a chance to make noteworthy progress (hitting that threshold of votes) this is it.

 

Yes, Shokkou, if you're voting for Trump you're dumb, regardless of your color or race (Why can't we use nukes?). But despite the nominee's breathless claims to the contrary, there are very few nonwhites supporting him. In the latest CNN/ORC poll, the percentage of blacks, for example, was zero. Zero percent. Heh.

 

I would love to see the GOP go down in flames here and the Libertarians supplant them. That would go a long way toward turning off the crazy in American politics.

 

I'm inflaming the partisan divide. Lol.

[Shokkou]

Yes you are. Every word of your rhetoric perfectly demonstrates just why Trump is so popular with so many people and yet you, like the rest of the left, just can't seem to wrap your head around the idea of using any other approach. Hillary has so many great little bits to use against her that perfectly demonstrate her incapability "under sniper fire" "what like with a cloth" "what difference does [Benghazi] make" the list goes on and on without even touching on her politically opportunistic flip-flopping. You have one thing you've brought up repeatedly in an attempt to browbeat people with this idea that a vote for Trump is somehow so much worse than a vote for Hillary as to be idiotic. Now, what was actually said in this context (which you conveniently truncated I notice) is "if we have nuclear weapons why can't we use them" which is a sensible question. We pay to keep those weapons and the systems that control them working for a reason. Deterrence. But deterrence only works if your enemy, whoever that may be, believes you will push the button. What circumstances was he asking about using nukes in? I saw the reporting about this and any broader context was suspiciously absent.

 

Getting back to what I said about the the left's unwillingness to find a new approach, you say that the implosion of the Republican party and its subsequent replacement with the Libertarians would get a lot of the crazy out of American politics. There's a saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. In that case, the overwhelming majority of insanity in American politics is held by the Democratic party.

[ᗅᗺᗷᗅ]

Shokkou, you're cute. But I'm not buying it. Donald Trump is wholly unqualified to be president, and you know it. But I do admire your dedication to arguing.

[Justavictim82]

I'll just leave this here.

Edited by Justavictim82, 07 August 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[The Dark Empire]

My vote is for harambe

[BlackOut227]

My vote is for harambe

[*Anastasia]

While I am broadly in agreement with Jorost, I'd hazard against this broad assumption that everyone voting for Trump is 'dumb.' This was the same argument that was made against those who voted for Brexit, and not only is it equally not true in this case as it was then, it's also going to be just as effective in this case as it was then. Telling people they're dumb—even when they are—is not a winning argument. Telling people they're dumb when, in fact, many of them aren't is certainly not a winning argument.

Regardless of whether you agree with them, many of Trump's voters have what are to them very good reasons for voting for him. Some don't like him, but really don't like Clinton, and buy into the anti-third-party rhetoric that you once espoused yourself, Jorost. Some of them are so fed up with the status quo they view him as a protest vote, and I really can't blame them for that. I personally know one-time Bernie campaigners who plan to vote, or are at least considering voting, for Trump.

Trump may be an idiot. Some of his supporters may be idiots. But they're not all dumb, and telling them they are isn't going to change their mind. If anything, it's going to entrench their positions, and drive swing voters away from you, because there are people who still don't know who they're going to vote for, or if they're going to vote at all, and calling the other side stupidheads doesn't make them seem like the less-appealing option: it just makes your side look like bullies.

[Redezra]

I don't think Trump supporters are stupid, I think he enjoys support because he's exactly not what politicians are. He says it how he sees it, he doesn't fear pissing minorities off, and he tells a story that many people believe, be it mexicans taking their jobs, or muslims trying to infiltrate and assimilate the USA.

 

I understand why that would happen, people are taught very strongly that commitment truth and honesty are objectively "good" behaviors. Most politicians don't engage in them because it tends to be harmful to their positions. But people are wrong.

 

People tend to feel that direct force is the most effective way to solve problems. Fighting, yelling, aggressive ultimatums, torture as interrogation, etc. The truth is, as is evident by global politics, that subtlety is king. Trump's supporters might feel that the right thing to do is assert themselves and directly use the extraordinary power they have as a nation to get what they want done. What we who don't like him think (at least those of us who don't like him for a reason above partisanship), is that this force application will scare people. Individuals, minorities, nations... And the more savvy operators among us, extremist groups, powerbrokers, real international threats like Russia or China, will be able to take that fear and channel it into a force against the US and their allies. Trump would undo decades of US leadership in the world, and create the domestic social instability he seeks to quell.

 

 

I mean, I fully understand that this is entirely speculation, but then again so is saying that he will do anything to rip up the establishment.

[Thrash]

 If anything, it's going to entrench their positions, and drive swing voters away from you, because there are people who still don't know who they're going to vote for, or if they're going to vote at all, and calling the other side stupidheads doesn't make them seem like the less-appealing option: it just makes your side look like bullies.

[KingTopherXXIII]

Wow, I do believe if I recall correctly being somewhat dismissed when I brought up Gary Johnsons name a few months ago. I am very happy to hear this news, although I do believe he has a chance to win. The damn media needs to radically change their stance though. Very cool about knowing Bill Weld, I like him a lot. He is very well spoken and brings some teeth to their campaign.

[King Biscuit]

Wow, I do believe if I recall correctly being somewhat dismissed when I brought up Gary Johnsons name a few months ago. I am very happy to hear this news, although I do believe he has a chance to win. The damn media needs to radically change their stance though. Very cool about knowing Bill Weld, I like him a lot. He is very well spoken and brings some teeth to their campaign.

 

The only chance Gary has of winning the White House is if it gets thrown to Congress.

To do that, the main two candidates have to be denied the majority.

 

Tough.